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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 21st October 2012, 11:22 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by MiiB View Post
with the right kind of passive crossover the system is treated as a whole. and not as individual drivers. Drivers always change with amplitude this you can tailor with passives and not with active drive.
So you can compensate for the level-dependent (increasing..) distortion in drivers by introducing an other type of distortion? Audiophiles in general may buy that sort of quasi-technical nonsense, but I don't.

Well maybe you can - with some luck - compensate for a driver that does not have the same frequency response at different levels. That of course will require that crossover parts also saturate and change their values with different input levels.

But on the other hand, I would stay away from such drivers and crossover parts....
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Old 21st October 2012, 11:33 AM   #292
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The meme seems to be that the passive crossover is a living, breathing thing that ties the separate drivers together into a whole, with each driver sharing the others' pain.

Whereas the active system is strictly feedforward and dumb.
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Old 21st October 2012, 11:58 AM   #293
MiiB is offline MiiB  Denmark
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Copper top.. you got it... changes in one area should be reflected in the other areas, this is simply not possible with active...If you think of it, how many top systems are active...??
It may be possible to get active to work in the base region, but even that is very difficult just try to add a sub to a good quality 2 way. 99 of a 100 times it sounds slow, detached and out of sync with the music...

StigErik point me to a driver that does not change parameters with SPL.

That was basically the sole reason for entering into building our own mid/bass drivers at Raidho.
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Old 21st October 2012, 12:10 PM   #294
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Copper top.. you got it... changes in one area should be reflected in the other areas, this is simply not possible with active...If you think of it, how many top systems are active...??
Practically all of them.

To wit: ATC, PMC, ME Geithain, Neumann/Klein&Hummel, Quested Audio, Barefoot Sound etc.

You know the ones which are chosen by the people who actually get to compare the recording to the actual performance.
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Old 21st October 2012, 12:49 PM   #295
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Default Passive is better than active – no doubt !

…because this is a perfect situation for the industry, the dealer, the magazines and the audiophile.

The industry is able to sell new better amplifiers, speakers and certainly cables.
Next year’s cable has another colour or new type of wood to block bad digital noise and the next year’s power amplifier has new wrapping with some kind of magical alloy that cures room resonances etc.

Each year the dealer will be able to present something new that the audiophile will gladly come around for a demo and the dealer will probably sell some of the old technology with new wrapping.

The magazines will easily compare and measure the new amplifier and speaker and they can put some newly developed phrases on the newly developed magical cables.

The audiophile - the true one (audiophile) has to be able to test different combinations of cables, loudspeakers and power amplifier – so no doubt that passive is better.

Whereas an active setup is not at all straight forward… The manufacturer has to make the whole system as no speaker is prepared for active drive, no standard crossover will fit all, cables suddenly make much less sense and it’s much more complicated to persuade the customer to buy the multi thousand dollar expensive power amplifier that “cures all problems” x 2, 3 or 4. The dealer has no knowledge of measuring and setting up the system and the audiophile is deprived of the simple opportunity to compare cables, speakers and power amplifiers. How do the magazines test this bulky complex active system and how do they compare two different system that can be changed within seconds and did they at all make the right changes – oh no they might fail when changing a parameter !

It simply does not make any sense to use active amplification to change this perfect situation. Everybody is happy.

Regards,
Robert GS

…the debate from a practical angle, but I am not practical and I love the opportunities that active offers and always will do
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Old 21st October 2012, 12:51 PM   #296
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It may be possible to get active to work in the base region, but even that is very difficult just try to add a sub to a good quality 2 way. 99 of a 100 times it sounds slow, detached and out of sync with the music...
So you've listened to 100 good quality sub/sat systems, and have found only one where the two integrate nicely?

Do share some details of your obviously extensive tests, including how you set the crossover up for each system, room placement of the loudspeakers, etc.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 21st October 2012, 01:16 PM   #297
MiiB is offline MiiB  Denmark
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OK I stop.. can't get into stupid arguments. I just stating my experience and also some of the clearly obvious reasons. seems like lots of religion in the, and that debate is not for me..

Robert do you really believe what you just wrote... I mean if ative was really superior don't you think that high end speakers that really aim for high performance would go down that route. I know I would, but these dynamic changing parameters are just too challenging for rigid active structures,
THe picture you paint of an industry, that has a sort of agreement on preserving certain system structures is just out of the blue.
Things will change wireless will be more, maybe even wireless speakers with built in amps driven directly from Ipad like devices, steamed data ect... But even that speaker will most probably have a passive crossover for all or most of the network..
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Old 21st October 2012, 01:25 PM   #298
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Robert do you really believe what you just wrote... I mean if ative was really superior don't you think that high end speakers that really aim for high performance would go down that route.
I absolutely believe what he wrote. Never discount the influence of tradition and fashion- the goal of a high end speaker manufacturer (as opposed to a hobbyist) is to sell stuff, and if the buyers of expensive speakers love entertaining themselves by swapping components and wires, they won't be happy if this opportunity is taken away from them.

The high end fashion audio market has rejected excellent active systems again and again. Gordon Holt wrote an annoyed editorial about this perhaps 30 years ago and it's just as true today.
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Old 21st October 2012, 01:29 PM   #299
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I give reasons, you reply with fashion...

good engineering..??
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Old 21st October 2012, 01:32 PM   #300
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Good engineering starts with a well-defined target and uses the best means to achieve that target. This is why my own speakers, which are totally noncommercial, use a mix of passive and active. If I were to design commercial speakers for the high end market, I would only use passive, not because it's the "best" from an engineering perspective, but because I could sell it...

When the answer for "why do people do X instead of Y for commercial equipment?" is "fashion," then that's the answer I'll give.
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