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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 18th October 2012, 10:36 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
This in and of itself is useless for crossover design, it's nice in theory, but this only works if the drivers frequency responses are perfectly flat and extremely extended. 99.9% of drivers are not, so you will not be getting a flat response out of the loudspeakers, unless you've EQd them flat to start with.
Hence my mention of further processing when I get round to it, and my suspicion that I've been a bit lucky with my choice of speakers (combined with room).
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:39 PM   #152
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At high level you can choose your best amplifier, best preamp, best speaker, best digital source. Those who work in audio shop selling high end stuffs will be familiar with the sound of certain high end system combinations. And one of these will be the ultimate passive system.

Now lets see the ultimate active analog crossover system... Let's list them.

As simple as that...
This is just audiophile rubbish again. There are plenty of excellent active designs from a number of manufactures out there ATC being one of them. Just because the audiophile world shuns active loudspeakers in general doesn't mean they are automatically bad. The reason ironically why they shun them is because it tends to remove the part of picking your own parts. You tend to get a pair of loudspeakers with the amplifiers built in with no scope of 'upgrading' any of the parts in the future, it's boring for audiophiles for lack of a better word.

Interestingly though I have read the subjective reviews of many active systems over the years and they always get glowing reviews. Funny that.
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:40 PM   #153
cotdt is offline cotdt  United States
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OK, so you are not looking for objective reasons but more personal reasons. I'll tell you why I went back to using passives.

Actives are a big hassle when you are testing and using a high-end amp. You would have to use chip amps (Class D or gainclone) to keep costs and space usage down. My favorite amp is a single ended direct heated triode, and it is magical. But not practical to have three of these thing$ for active. Pretty much all modern recordings are close-mic'ed and are not supposed to have any sense of space or soundstage. It's very unnatural and "unmagical". You don't want hi-fi, you want realism, and the monotonically decreasing harmonics produced by a carefully tuned tube amp adds back the perception of distance and space. This is exactly the same thing air does to a sound wave, it adds harmonics. So now when I listen to my recordings, I close my eyes and feel like I am actually there. Now if I was using active, it would be my 6-channel T-amp, which is not the same.

Last edited by cotdt; 18th October 2012 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:41 PM   #154
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Hence my mention of further processing when I get round to it, and my suspicion that I've been a bit lucky with my choice of speakers (combined with room).
Well yes but you're putting the horse before the cart.
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:42 PM   #155
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Excuse my ignorance, but how does the designer of a passive crossover account for the changing electrical parameters (resistance, inductance?) of a drive unit depending on how hard it's being driven? Won't such changes affect crossover performance?
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:43 PM   #156
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In reply to Jay:


The big ATCs are pretty good.
I've heard them in a few studios and they come as close to the actual instrument as anything.
I've also heard very good things about ME Geithains RL901k from people I trust in that regard but they have eluded me as yet.

I'm quite happy with my own consisting of Fountek CD3.0 ribbons, Tannoy 3148 for treble and mids and Volt RV3143 in a T/L for bass. Amps are from the top: Omniphonics Footprint, MC2 Audio T500, MC2 Audio MC450 and MC2 Audio MC750.
Crossovers are modified BSS FDS360, I removed the limiters and relays and changed the op amps to OPA2134.
I use an ARX MultiQ parametric to replace eq function of the passive Tannoy crossover on the treble.
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:47 PM   #157
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WinISD Pro has a neat feature where you can add series resistance and watch the effect on box alignment - its worth (when using passive XOs, or long speaker cables), adding the resistance of the added components in, so the cabinet alignment can be altered accordingly.
Yes and in a lot of cases the response will be better.... Look at some of the older vifa woofers datasheets and you will see that they show their modelled responses with series resistance added (in the case of my M26WR-09-08's they show 0.7 ohms!) If the driver has been designed assuming that it will be used with a passive crossover so that that estimated series resistance will be present then you have to wonder, will you get the optimum performance if it is not present?

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Old 18th October 2012, 10:54 PM   #158
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Excuse my ignorance, but how does the designer of a passive crossover account for the changing electrical parameters (resistance, inductance?) of a drive unit depending on how hard it's being driven? Won't such changes affect crossover performance?
Yes it will and there's nothing they can do. The best thing possible is for the designer to see what the response looks like when the coils have warmed up a little and alter the component values perhaps to ensure that under a decent drive level things remain linear. For example if when driven hard a little a small hump appears around the xover frequency that could make the loudspeakers more forward and fatiguing then they should be, they could alter the xover values to compensate, but at the expense of flatness when the loudspeaker is cold. This could potentially make the loudspeaker sound good at lower levels, but also sound nice at higher levels too.

Typically though most people listen at levels that tend to stay on the cool side of things.
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Old 18th October 2012, 10:59 PM   #159
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Excuse my ignorance, but how does the designer of a passive crossover account for the changing electrical parameters (resistance, inductance?) of a drive unit depending on how hard it's being driven? Won't such changes affect crossover performance?
Yes, they can, and do. But in practice, if the drivers are fairly good quality, and the crossover is well chosen in relation to the driver limitations, the effect of these changes can be fairly minimal.

That being said, it's easier to get truly high performance out of active systems than passive. In particular, what can be achieved with a DEQX is pretty magical if you start with the right speaker topologies and drivers.

But then, a nice full-range, passive XO with a bass augmentation driver can be pretty great also...

Yes, it's possible to achieve very high quality with both. Just more likely with the active.
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Last edited by Jack Caldwell; 18th October 2012 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 18th October 2012, 11:03 PM   #160
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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This is just audiophile rubbish again. There are plenty of excellent active designs from a number of manufactures out there ATC being one of them.
Why rubbish? What I asked is to list the systems. You perceive audiophiles as probably some DIY-ers you know who do not know the knowledge nor the money.

Many "audiophiles" do not even care with DIY. They will buy anything that they like, whether it is active or passive. If you mention the best active system that will outperform their passive system, they will purchase it right away, no doubt.

But many audiophiles love the magic of simple tube amps. You wont see OPA2134 in their systems. Tell me which active analog crossovers that will not change the basic characteristics of 300B for example.
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