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-   -   Wavelet CSD – a better graphic representation of loudspeaker/room interaction? (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/221219-wavelet-csd-better-graphic-representation-loudspeaker-room-interaction.html)

Rudolf 9th October 2012 09:22 AM

Wavelet CSD – a better graphic representation of loudspeaker/room interaction?
 
8 Attachment(s)
I’m trying to understand how the representation of sound in wavelet diagrams, as recently discussed in this thread , relates to more conventional representations in impulse response or SPL diagrams. It comes in handy that I just have measured the response difference between two states of my listening room front wall:

Attachment 305440

The difference is in two large sheets of 4 cm thick Basotect added above the desk. Basotect is an open cell melamine foam with well defined absorption qualities:

Attachment 305441

Note how 4.1 cm thick Basotect starts to absorb at ~500 Hz and is fully absorptive above 1.5 kHz.
I had measured the ungated response of the left speaker at the listening/microphone position. The red reflection path got my special interest of course.

Let’s first look at the “conventional” diagrams.
These are the impulse responses before/after the installation of the Basotect panels:

Attachment 305442

The impact of the front wall response is marked with the white arrow head. It is the only remarkable difference between both responses. The timing has been checked with the room geometry.
The difference is easily detectable in the Energy Time Curve (ETC)too:

Attachment 305443

But there is almost no sign of the deleted reflection in the frequency response:

Attachment 305444


For a contrast we look at the wavelet CSD analysis as provided by Elias Pekonen Elias Pekonen Home Page - Wavelet Software
First his energy time curve (ETC) which does not completely agree with the ARTA curve above, but which shows a comparable difference in the pre/after Basotect results around 7 ms (arrow):

Attachment 305445

Now the wavelet CSD analysis in an animated comparison, both normalized and not normalized:

Attachment 305446

Attachment 305447

“mit Baso” is “with”, “ohne Baso” is “without”.

Would anybody like to comment on the different representations (conventional <-> wavelet CSD) and their usability for a critical analysis of loudspeaker room interaction?

Rudolf

markus76 9th October 2012 09:46 AM

The wavelet CSD shows differences <7ms but there shouldn't be any?

markus76 9th October 2012 10:34 AM

By the way, Rudolf, your dipole bass is too slow :)

Elias 9th October 2012 03:31 PM

Hi,

Some comments :)

The wavelet package does not plot ETC, but it is impulse response in a dB scale i.e. 20*log10(abs(ir)) where ir is the impulse response.

The CSD may be best used in higher freqs than what you are using it. Try to set the lower limit to 500 Hz for example.

Better analysis to see room reflection points in more temporal detail is to use constant-Q or Bark wavelets. They have naturally more 'narrow' presentation at the top end.

Then multiresolution analysis of the above methods increases information in a one plot.

Hope to see more plots coming ;)


- Elias

gedlee 9th October 2012 05:22 PM

Markus - agreed

Rudolf - The ETC is the most obvious, but the impulse response is just as informative if you know what you are looking at.

Elias - I have no trouble with wavelet analysis usage at high frequencies, I don't see it as any better or any worse than traditional techniques, but you have been saying that its use for LFs in small rooms somehow shows how dipoles are better than monopoles. But now you are saying "The CSD may be best used in higher freqs"

Rudolf 9th October 2012 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elias (Post 3195053)
The wavelet package does not plot ETC, but it is impulse response in a dB scale i.e. 20*log10(abs(ir)) where ir is the impulse response.

"My" ETC in Arta looks largely the same as "your" impulse response, if I use the same x/y scaling. :)
Quote:

The CSD may be best used in higher freqs than what you are using it. Try to set the lower limit to 500 Hz for example ....
Hi Elias,
I finally took the plunge and installed Octave and your wavelet package on my Windows computer, following your links and instructions. It was easier than expected - really. Hopefully this encourages others to follow ;).

In the meantime I will follow your recommendations and try the other methods too.
Quote:

Hope to see more plots coming
Always at your service ;)
Rudolf

markus76 9th October 2012 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gedlee (Post 3195238)
Elias - I have no trouble with wavelet analysis usage at high frequencies, I don't see it as any better or any worse than traditional techniques, but you have been saying that its use for LFs in small rooms somehow shows how dipoles are better than monopoles. But now you are saying "The CSD may be best used in higher freqs"

Yes, quite a contradiction.

Nevertheless it would be very helpful to have an easy to use method of visualizing modal ringing at low frequencies.

Elias 9th October 2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudolf (Post 3195261)
"My" ETC in Arta looks largely the same as "your" impulse response, if I use the same x/y scaling. :)

ETC and impulse response are largely the same, only that ETC tries to represent an envelope which may or may not be very intuitive for an impulse response.

Well, ETC is what it is. I just plot the impulse response to visually check that everything is in order.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudolf (Post 3195261)
It was easier than expected - really.

I'm glad to hear that :D

Rudolf 9th October 2012 09:19 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I followed Elias’ suggestion to alter the CSD wavelet (now starting from 500 Hz) and to include a Bark wavelet:

Attachment 305536

Attachment 305537

While both above diagrams clearly have their merits, they both emphasize (to me) a problem which Markus had already addressed in post #2: While I can very well see the attenuation of the reflection at 7 ms plus, there is too much happening/changing at other times too.

It reminds me of pictures with heavy unsharp masking. Even the finest detail is featured very prominently, and the visual distribution between “severe” and “marginal” is not linear – for my taste. In a way these wavelet diagrams are very “analytical” in clearly showing those small differences. In another way they can visually suggest a difference between two situations/measurement/principles, which may not be as severe when actually heard.

I’m aware that this is my VERY subjective impression. These days German art museums show a broadly renewed interest in expressionist painters. And I can’t help to find these wavelet diagrams quite “expressionist” too. Resolving for sure, but often on the verge of being strident.

I will need some more personal comparisons between what I hear, what the usual diagrams tell me and what those wavelet diagrams show, before I have digested this new tool.

Rudolf

Elias 9th October 2012 09:48 PM

Hey, you havent done constant Q yet ! :D


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