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Old 7th October 2012, 02:55 PM   #11
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
..that 1.8 - 6 kHz is still pretty much "flat" for a full 60 degree window on-axis.
Your pretty much flat is my "excess midrange energy off-axis," I guess. Thanks to Sreten for posting measurements that prove my point!

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In other words it's not perfect, but it really shouldn't be much of an issue.
It's better than a lot of 7" flush-tweeter 2-ways, certainly including the Ushers. As one would expect, because Krutke is simply better at designing speakers than whoever Usher outsources to (Danny Richie?). But it still has the innate midrange colorations of that speaker configuration, which can only be solved by controlling the directivity of the tweeter at the bottom of its passband.
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Old 7th October 2012, 07:02 PM   #12
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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..too large midwoofer and no directivity control on the tweeter.

So the midrange won't sound right and the speaker will impart a spitty coloration to the music, unless one's willing to mutilate her/his room with "acoustic treatments" to compensate for the off-axis midrange response errors.
I think it's the conclusion though that is wrong, UNLESS you listen to it well off-axis. If you do listen with either no real "toe-out" or an exaggerated "toe-in" then the conclusion may well be correct, but I don't think it was intended to be listened to in that manner - so the design itself doesn't lend itself to such criticism.
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Old 9th October 2012, 12:38 AM   #13
qguy is offline qguy  Canada
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More info..

My Ushers are on the warm side of things, Vocals is great as well as bass enhanced tracks. What seems to be lacking is a bit more detail and snap on the percussion instruments. Would the ZRT fit the bill ?
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Old 9th October 2012, 03:50 AM   #14
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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More info..

My Ushers are on the warm side of things, Vocals is great as well as bass enhanced tracks. What seems to be lacking is a bit more detail and snap on the percussion instruments. Would the ZRT fit the bill ?
Simply having a larger enclosure for a driver of that size will decrease system compliance (lower Qtc.) and usually increase dynamics and detail.. on the other hand "warmth" isn't something you are likely to get from the ZRT. (..I think in this case that warmth is a product of that midbass from Usher.)

In other words if you build the ZRT you'll get a *different* sounding loudspeaker, with some traits you are looking for - but likely at the expense of other subjective effects.

However, usually if you want something more dynamic with more detail - look to more efficient designs. (..you can *also* get warmth as well, but with more efficient designs the trade-off will always be larger size cabinets Vs. bass extension.) Though no cabinets are available, I'd recommend looking at Troels line of TQWT designs. They should give you warmth + detail + dynamics, particularly the DTQWT.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008_DTQWT.htm
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Old 10th October 2012, 12:20 AM   #15
qguy is offline qguy  Canada
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Would this be even better ?

Retain the Usher X-719 and convert is a as a Mid/hi unit using minidsp

Get the usher 1001b, 10 inch woofer put in enclosure
Add another amp.
Cross the Usher X-719 at around 500 hz and the 1001b from 500hz down using minidsp
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Old 10th October 2012, 12:46 AM   #16
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Would this be even better ?

Retain the Usher X-719 and convert is a as a Mid/hi unit using minidsp

Get the usher 1001b, 10 inch woofer put in enclosure
Add another amp.
Cross the Usher X-710 at around 500 hz and the 1001b from 500hz down using minidsp
Woe.. that's quite a lot to take in.

Better than the TQWT.. probably not. But with eq. certainly more linear.

Anytime you go "active" detail usually increases, but sometimes at the expense of image "size and structure" (localization/specificity usually increases though). It's a crap-shoot really.

Another thought is changing the 8945A for the 8948A, BUT the drivers may well be different enough to cause problems with the final result.


Honestly though, I'd still recommend the TQWT for you (or the DTQWT). While it's not the most linear design available, Troels does have a TON of experience with loudspeakers:

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Old 10th October 2012, 01:10 AM   #17
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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I think it's the conclusion though that is wrong, UNLESS you listen to it well off-axis. If you do listen with either no real "toe-out" or an exaggerated "toe-in" then the conclusion may well be correct, but I don't think it was intended to be listened to in that manner - so the design itself doesn't lend itself to such criticism.
I've yet to hear a 7" 2-way with flush-mounted tweeter that didn't sound amusically spitty. That coloration correlates well with the midrange power response issue they all suffer from.

Better speakers with a 7" midrange and controlled-directivity tweeter (e.g. KEF 201/2) don't suffer from that coloration.
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Old 10th October 2012, 01:25 AM   #18
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I've yet to hear a 7" 2-way with flush-mounted tweeter that didn't sound amusically spitty. That coloration correlates well with the midrange power response issue they all suffer from.
I can't help but wonder if that "spittyness" is a function of soft driver materials flexing.
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Old 10th October 2012, 03:44 AM   #19
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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I can't help but wonder if that "spittyness" is a function of soft driver materials flexing.
Or simply the horn loading effect of the diaphragm itself vs. the wavelength (2k is about that range for a 7" driver). Or perhaps the tweeter run to low (distortion or even added baffle diffraction).

I've experimented with horns and larger drivers that also had similar polar problems, but spittyness wasn't the resulting negative effect, rather a forward emphasized lower treble.
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Old 10th October 2012, 01:45 PM   #20
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I'd have thought that any spittyness, or lack there of, in a wave-guide loaded system, would be due to the directivity controlled upper frequencies, not the very minor beaming problems around 1-2kHz.

It has been my limited experience that smaller tweeters with better off axis curves, have the worst case of spittyness and then tweeters with poorer off axis curves, then moving to smaller then larger wave-guides being much better in this regard.
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