I have the Usher X-719, its a 2 way with Usher 9950 tweeters and 7 inch mid woofers 8945. Want to build a kit that would be significantly better than this one. Looking at the Zaph ZRT and at $1000 for drivers and crossover, would this be a significant upgrade ?
Added Oct 8.
More info..
My Ushers are on the warm side of things, Vocals is great as well as bass enhanced tracks. What seems to be lacking is a bit more detail and snap on the percussion instruments. Would the ZRT fit the bill ?
Added Oct 8.
More info..
My Ushers are on the warm side of things, Vocals is great as well as bass enhanced tracks. What seems to be lacking is a bit more detail and snap on the percussion instruments. Would the ZRT fit the bill ?
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No. Yes. Really depends on what you are looking for.
Certainly improved bass response and dynamic "headroom".
But overall better sounding, unlikely - particularly if using a good sub-woofer. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised that (absent extended bass and dynamic "headroom"), Zaph's SR71 sounds just as good. I'd also suspect that Zaph's SB 12.3 would sound better than either.. BUT there are no cabinets available for sale for that design that I'm aware of.
The ZRT is one of the few "kits" that includes cabinets, at least in the US. (..and note that they are almost 1,600 for the pair with cabinets.)
If you need something more dynamic (with greater "headroom"), then another kit to consider might be from Gedlee - however at least one subwoofer will be required (and preferably 3 or more). (..functionally they are like "mini" monitors with respect to low freq. extension, though they aren't "mini".)
..an alternative to Gedlee with similar limitations can be found here:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker-kits/mtg-kit.html
..just not that many kits with cabinets.
(..I think Tony Gee in EU has some as well, but believe they cost more.)
If you just want a well documented design to follow, and are willing to either do the cabinets & crossover yourself OR have someone else do them then your options VASTLY increase.
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Seems that drivers from Usher are available, maybe conversion to "Diamond" will make them better?
http://www.usheraudio.com/Drivers.html
Definitely it is not an easy process, but everything is possible.
If that's the same speaker as the Tiny Dancer, it's not a hard speaker to beat. In a blind test, with sub/stands (Peerless-for-M&K SLS8's, closed boxes), I ranked it far below the KEF HTC-3001SE, Zaph Bargain Mini 4, Behringer B2031P, and Tannoy Arena.
The ZRT has the same basic design flaw as the Tiny Dancer: too large midwoofer and no directivity control on the tweeter. So the midrange won't sound right and the speaker will impart a spitty coloration to the music, unless one's willing to mutilate her/his room with "acoustic treatments" to compensate for the off-axis midrange response errors.
A Zaph DIY kit that would be far better sounding is the Zaph Bargain Mini 4 atop a powered bass bin, crossed at about 300Hz.
The ZRT has the same basic design flaw as the Tiny Dancer: too large midwoofer and no directivity control on the tweeter. So the midrange won't sound right and the speaker will impart a spitty coloration to the music, unless one's willing to mutilate her/his room with "acoustic treatments" to compensate for the off-axis midrange response errors.
A Zaph DIY kit that would be far better sounding is the Zaph Bargain Mini 4 atop a powered bass bin, crossed at about 300Hz.
ZRT - Measured 0,15,30,45,60 degrees horizontal off axis, 10ms window
Hi,
The above is just simplistic opinion about the ZRT. There is no
evidence of the problems described above, pure conjecture.
rgds, sreten.
Ahh, good - more info.!
Need a bit more though, like desired performance characteristics.
(spl requirements, impedance character (4 or 8 ohms nominal, "flat" or not), efficiency/amplifier power, imaging (localization and character), sound stage, improved clarity, tonal properties ("warm" or "clinical"), etc..
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ZRT - Measured 0,15,30,45,60 degrees horizontal off axis, 10ms window
Hi,
The above is just simplistic opinion about the ZRT. There is no
evidence of the problems described above, pure conjecture..
umm....
Based on that graph, it seems pretty clear to me that speaker has excess power response between 1.8khz and 6khz or so. I won't comment on the audible consequences without knowing what room it will be in though. But not only is there evidence - it's right there in your own graph.
..that 1.8 - 6 kHz is still pretty much "flat" for a full 60 degree window on-axis.
As long as the listener is within +/- 15 degrees, then their shouldn't be any problem (..except for the top octave which could be slightly "depressed").
Additionally, depending on how close the drivers are to boundaries like the floor and walls, the 400 Hz to 2 kHz "trough" at 45+ degrees should receive some "fill" at those extended angles.
In other words it's not perfect, but it really shouldn't be much of an issue.
I was going to say, as 6.5" two ways go the ZRT uses a sufficiently low xover point as to dramatically minimise any issues in the off axis that would otherwise be present due to the woofer beaming.
Measurements on the X719 can be found here
Usher Audio Technology Compass X-719 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Looking a that, there's a lot that can be done to 'improve' the design from a technical point of view. From a subjective point of the view the loudspeakers will without a doubt have a character of their own so there's plenty of room for trying something different - if you prefer different is the question that none of us can answer.
As Scott said though, without knowing what SPL requirements you have it is difficult to make recommendations, but considering that you've got a sub, then absolute bass extension isn't a requirement. From that point of view it would make sense to also consider loudspeakers that use 5" drivers as the mid-range element.
As Pallas alludes to in his post, directivity control can also offer a presentation that can be captivating for a lot of people and a suitable design with a wave-guide would also perhaps be something to consider.
Measurements on the X719 can be found here
Usher Audio Technology Compass X-719 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Looking a that, there's a lot that can be done to 'improve' the design from a technical point of view. From a subjective point of the view the loudspeakers will without a doubt have a character of their own so there's plenty of room for trying something different - if you prefer different is the question that none of us can answer.
As Scott said though, without knowing what SPL requirements you have it is difficult to make recommendations, but considering that you've got a sub, then absolute bass extension isn't a requirement. From that point of view it would make sense to also consider loudspeakers that use 5" drivers as the mid-range element.
As Pallas alludes to in his post, directivity control can also offer a presentation that can be captivating for a lot of people and a suitable design with a wave-guide would also perhaps be something to consider.
Your pretty much flat is my "excess midrange energy off-axis," I guess. Thanks to Sreten for posting measurements that prove my point!
It's better than a lot of 7" flush-tweeter 2-ways, certainly including the Ushers. As one would expect, because Krutke is simply better at designing speakers than whoever Usher outsources to (Danny Richie?). But it still has the innate midrange colorations of that speaker configuration, which can only be solved by controlling the directivity of the tweeter at the bottom of its passband.
I think it's the conclusion though that is wrong, UNLESS you listen to it well off-axis. If you do listen with either no real "toe-out" or an exaggerated "toe-in" then the conclusion may well be correct, but I don't think it was intended to be listened to in that manner - so the design itself doesn't lend itself to such criticism.
Simply having a larger enclosure for a driver of that size will decrease system compliance (lower Qtc.) and usually increase dynamics and detail.. on the other hand "warmth" isn't something you are likely to get from the ZRT. (..I think in this case that warmth is a product of that midbass from Usher.)
In other words if you build the ZRT you'll get a *different* sounding loudspeaker, with some traits you are looking for - but likely at the expense of other subjective effects.
However, usually if you want something more dynamic with more detail - look to more efficient designs. (..you can *also* get warmth as well, but with more efficient designs the trade-off will always be larger size cabinets Vs. bass extension.) Though no cabinets are available, I'd recommend looking at Troels line of TQWT designs. They should give you warmth + detail + dynamics, particularly the DTQWT.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008_DTQWT.htm
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Woe.. that's quite a lot to take in.
Better than the TQWT.. probably not. But with eq. certainly more linear.
Anytime you go "active" detail usually increases, but sometimes at the expense of image "size and structure" (localization/specificity usually increases though). It's a crap-shoot really.
Another thought is changing the 8945A for the 8948A, BUT the drivers may well be different enough to cause problems with the final result.
Honestly though, I'd still recommend the TQWT for you (or the DTQWT). While it's not the most linear design available, Troels does have a TON of experience with loudspeakers:
DIY Loudspeakers
I've yet to hear a 7" 2-way with flush-mounted tweeter that didn't sound amusically spitty. That coloration correlates well with the midrange power response issue they all suffer from.
Better speakers with a 7" midrange and controlled-directivity tweeter (e.g. KEF 201/2) don't suffer from that coloration.
I can't help but wonder if that "spittyness" is a function of soft driver materials flexing.
Or simply the horn loading effect of the diaphragm itself vs. the wavelength (2k is about that range for a 7" driver). Or perhaps the tweeter run to low (distortion or even added baffle diffraction).
I've experimented with horns and larger drivers that also had similar polar problems, but spittyness wasn't the resulting negative effect, rather a forward emphasized lower treble.
I'd have thought that any spittyness, or lack there of, in a wave-guide loaded system, would be due to the directivity controlled upper frequencies, not the very minor beaming problems around 1-2kHz.
It has been my limited experience that smaller tweeters with better off axis curves, have the worst case of spittyness and then tweeters with poorer off axis curves, then moving to smaller then larger wave-guides being much better in this regard.
It has been my limited experience that smaller tweeters with better off axis curves, have the worst case of spittyness and then tweeters with poorer off axis curves, then moving to smaller then larger wave-guides being much better in this regard.
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