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Old 2nd October 2012, 06:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mondogenerator View Post
lol at t101. Zaphs designs for the revelator are nice though. I still baulk at the drivers prices. I also dont like their high end trend for ultra low Qts, Audax HM series had it, and many of the Seas and SS. They have a strange DIYaudio porn quality it has to be said.
I've not heard his ZD5, but I built my own Scandivifias apparently in the same time-frame he built his with the same drivers, so I'd like to.

However- the ZRT were imperfect, and overly neutral in my opinion. A fellow poster over on PETT had to retune his boxes and swap resistors due to driver specs being a touch different and the preassembled xovers being wrong. Once he got them right, they were nice, but still overly neutral, IMO.

That's zaph's house sound, so that's what you get, cuz that's what he likes.
Others have described it as being 'afraid of midrange'.

Just my 2c,
Wolf
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Old 2nd October 2012, 08:03 PM   #12
sreten is online now sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf_teeth View Post
That's zaph's house sound, so that's what you get, cuz that's what
he likes. Others have described it as being 'afraid of midrange'.

Just my 2c,
Wolf
Hi,

And thats is fair enough, it is his site and his free designs.

I think he'd be quite pleased to have his designs criticised
as being "too neutral". His reposte might be well if neutral
isn't right then what is ?

The same applies to loads of other speaker designs that
are designed to be essentially flat. If you don't like flat
speakers and prefer designs that are clearly not flat
for the intended placement well that is your perogative.

If you understand the target sound you like there is no
real problem redesigning a speaker to that target sound.

Usually entails ignoring BSC for people who use and have
used speakers with no BSC for years. Problem is that BSC
varies with baffle width (mainly) so unBSC'd speakers of
different sizes sound different.

BSC'd speakers of different sizes sound more consistently the same.

If a system is optimised around unBSC'd speakers then clearly
neutral speakers won't work and other size speakers might not.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 02:52 AM   #13
cotdt is offline cotdt  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf_teeth View Post
Not to keep plugging zaph's page like above, but the SS 15W/8530K00 has the lowest HD of the 5" drivers he tested. I don't know where you're getting your findings...

Later,
Wolf
If you look at the 2nd harmonics, at 500Hz and 1000Hz the Revelator 5" has 10dB higher distortion than the Seas Excel and Peerless Exclusive. So it basically has 10x more distortion. I've used all 3 drivers in real 2-ways, and sold the Revelators.

If you look at Zaph's measurements for the AC130/50CK (http://zaphaudio.com/temp/AurumCantus-AC130-50CK-HD.gif) it kills the Scanspeak for far cheaper. I will be using this one for my next project.

Last edited by cotdt; 3rd October 2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 06:36 AM   #14
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cotdt-
I'll take a second look at those, as I was going from memory. Last I checked it, the 8530 was the lowest, so I'll reinform myself.

sreten-
By 'overly neutral', I mean all recordings even compressed ones would sound decent. To me the midrange is murky and undetailed in his ZRT. 'Overly neutral' would be the way the masses would typically accept his speakers since they are non-fatiguing and make music sound good. 'Sterile' would be another adjective. Zaph's stuff typically sounds like BBC dip to me, but many like that approach, so it's not incorrect either. Jon's 'Spassvogels' design sounds much more realistic and better than the ZRT with the same drivers.

To me- you can still have a flat measuring speaker, that makes most music sound good, sound more realistic without sucking some of the life out of the midrange. To tell me I don't strive for flat is kind of a low-blow, as that is how I model all my designs. I do believe realism, accuracy, and character can all be obtained in a design. I want that emotional connection that makes the design grab me and almost slip into a state of sonic euphoria.

There is more to a speaker design than just a flat response, even if that is part of the goal.

Later,
Wolf
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Old 3rd October 2012, 06:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
If you look at the 2nd harmonics, at 500Hz and 1000Hz the Revelator 5" has 10dB higher distortion than the Seas Excel and Peerless Exclusive. So it basically has 10x more distortion. I've used all 3 drivers in real 2-ways, and sold the Revelators.

If you look at Zaph's measurements for the AC130/50CK (http://zaphaudio.com/temp/AurumCantus-AC130-50CK-HD.gif) it kills the Scanspeak for far cheaper. I will be using this one for my next project.
The 3rd (F3) order is lower on the 15W8530 than the 830882, which is more important than the F2. This is the same case on the Excel W15CH. The 8530K00 has lower 3rd harmonic distortion than both of the others do.

The AC looks to be on par with the 8530K00, in both the F2 and F3 below 1kHz minus that spot just below 1kHz (which is normally notched anyway), and has lower distortion in the upper bandwidth overall. It looks like a good driver.

The W4-1757 has lower F2 and F3 than both the 15W8530K00 and the AC130/50CK, BUT the blemish at 2kHz needs filtered out with an LCR. I have the W4-1798S, and find it every bit as clean if not cleaner than the 8530's I have.

Later,
Wolf
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Last edited by wolf_teeth; 3rd October 2012 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 03:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf_teeth View Post
....
There is more to a speaker design than just a flat response, even if that is part of the goal.

Later,
Wolf
Yes ! The ears of the designer (if you take into account all types of measurement : that is a part of the goal)
That is somewhere logical but it is not the subject of this thread.
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Old 7th October 2012, 06:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome69 View Post
Yes ! The ears of the designer
Wolf has "loaned me his ears" on occasion. This has lead me into an appreciation of things I had never "heard before". I trust his input anytime-anywhere. ...doesn't mean my ears are the same or as capable, or that I like the same things. I think we share a similar pursuit.

I am truth seeker. I approve this message.
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Old 7th October 2012, 10:05 PM   #18
sreten is online now sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf_teeth View Post
Jon's 'Spassvogels' design sounds much more realistic
and better than the ZRT with the same drivers.
Wolf
Hi,

You forgot the "to me" and probably quite a few other
things related to the type of system the speaker is used in.
(The SV thread says they have not been compared.)

What ever, they both target 4th order L/R, Zaphs a little lower.

After that I can't be bothered to argue, the SV's sensitivity and
BSC is not made explicit, and it certainly has a nicer cabinet.

The astute with more details of the SV could make up their
own mind of with approach they'd prefer to take, YMMV.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 7th October 2012, 11:04 PM   #19
gornir is offline gornir  Sweden
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I think Zaph contribution to the DIY community is great and don't think That Sreten's promotion of Zaphs designs is wrong. They are well engineered, but of course they are tuned to his own preferences, but why shouldn't it be?

On the other hand one thing that bothered me when I measured the Zaph ZA-SR71 designed it seemed as it was designed and optimized around the 1m measurements.

ZaphAudio ZA-SR71 Review!

I don't know if that's the case about the ZRT design, but I hardly think anyone listen to such a loudspeaker at a 1m distance?

Regards

/Göran
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