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Old 30th September 2012, 11:08 AM   #41
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I design/build with one aim only, to get something that conveys music the way i like in a purely subjectve way. To me there is nothing objective about the voice of Emmylou Harris or Gretchen Peters, its a transmission of real emotion when it works like i want it to.

There will allways be different opinions about for instance drivers, there are a lot of stuff out there i would never use, cant see any reason to blurt that out to someone who loves them. This is as it should be, we all like different things, otherwise there would be only one driver manufacturer.

Measurement to me are a way to try to find out why something works well or why i ended upp totally wrong.

The x-over issue has been rectified, will post new measurements when ive done them again, forgot to save them last time.

And yes i listen to all kinds of music, both country and western.
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Old 30th September 2012, 01:45 PM   #42
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I am sorry that this thread has become so unhelpfully critical. I see a very nice cabinet construction with very good drivers there. You are to be congratulated for this.

Naturally the crossover is a bit Mickey Mouse at this early stage. In fact it's straight out of the pages of sreten's beloved diyaudioandvideo:

Click the image to open in full size.

It's OK to say it's good at simple country music and voices, but I suspect I would hate it for complex classical music where it'll probably become muddled and inaccurate and harsh. Tony Gee is a man who knows a thing or two about filters. He has an interesting article at SpeakerBuilding.com - The Proteus - To D' Appolito or not to D' Appolito, that is the question, Page 1 on D'Appolito designs with series crossovers. Hope it is of some interest, because the drivers are remarkably similar in inductance and frequency response. Enjoy.
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File Type: jpg Tony_Gee_Proteus_D'Appolito.JPG (28.9 KB, 280 views)
File Type: jpg Tony_Gee_Proteus_Conventional.JPG (54.1 KB, 275 views)
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Old 30th September 2012, 02:03 PM   #43
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Hehe system7 you summed up my situation perfectly!! My MTM's started out with the mids running full range and just a 4.3uF cap on the tweeters. They sounded very good on some music and as you say, just not right on others. It wasn't till I saw a post by Lynn Olson on what he called girl and guitar speakers (and why they don't cope with complex music) that the penny finally dropped. At that stage they had transformed to a couple of notches on the mids and a cap and lpad on the tweeters).

The original crossover (with notches and cap on tweeter) was (acoustically) 2nd order bessel. The new one is acoustically 4th order bessel. The difference is quite large (and I believe the improvement is largely due to both the mids and the tweeters no longer struggling with frequencies they really weren't cut out for). They now sound even better on girl and guitar, and don't collapse when you throw more complex music at them either. There are still some horribly compressed stuff that just sounds bad though (which suprisingly can sound ok on the car stereo).

I'll be interested to see whether Ingvar's crossover continues to evolve or not. Time will no doubt tell

Tony.
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Old 30th September 2012, 02:33 PM   #44
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Rullknuffs. Of course 2 x 6.5" drivers will have more dynamics than a single 4" full range. It doesn't mean this design can't be better.

The funny thing with simple cross overs that "work" is just as winter mute said it. They can be improved. Who's to say this speaker doesn't sound good? Yet it's easy to say this speaker can be better. Sorry Invar, but I don't believe in single caps on tweeters or woofers. I just explained why in another thread and if you're interested I can link you. I won't right now because I probably already sound like an *** and making assumptions that I may be wrong about you.
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Old 30th September 2012, 02:48 PM   #45
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Actually im not only listening to country/americana, its just where i find the music i love, was trying to be amusing, doesnt allways work.

I dont listen that much to classical or orchestral music but do use a couple of records for testing just what You fear can be a problem area, Carl Orff Catulli Carmina which works well, i hear a myriad of voices, separated, not just a wall of sound, Symphonie fantastique, Hector Berlioz on professor Johnsons Reference Recordings RR11, rather complex and violently dynamic.

This works but might be a bit aggressive at some cresendos, this ive mostly blamed the tracking of the Denon DL103R for.

I have cartridges that track a lot better but not tried on these speakers yet.

Quote:
Hope it is of some interest
Of course it is, im old enough (actually a lot older than that) to know that i have a lot left to learn.

I do like serial filters, although even there 1:st order is my primary choice, didnt try this from start here as i thoght the twin rather large wc oft the lf units would at high levels produce quite som back emf for which the hf unit is exposed in a serial filter.

Also dont quite understand, as with so much else, how a 2:nd order serial is just that, to me it looks as a serial 1:st order followed by a parallell 1:st order.

No matter what, i try to aproach these things with an open mind and absorb others knowledge (mine is almost never enough), so, ill try a 2:nd order serial in the style You directed me and well see what happens.

And, actually, thanks for interest and that You care about it.
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Old 30th September 2012, 02:59 PM   #46
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As for You Niklas,i will of course include components for both x-over types, then You can decide wich one to use, all components still Mundorf.
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Old 30th September 2012, 03:19 PM   #47
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I found wintermute's "Little_Girl_With_A_Guitar" reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson
This is why auditioning with little-girl-with-a-guitar program material and a full choral piece sound different. The LGWAG is spectrally sparse, and there isn't as much chance the tweeter will be struggling with IM distortion. Throw a dense, high-powered spectrum at the loudspeaker, though, and the tweeter will start to scream - and it is very audible on massed chorus as complete breakup.
Can you have sparkling treble but without sibilance

Nicely explained by Lynn, as ever.

A serial crossover might not have everything you need here, and are quite hard to modify without going haywire. My own inclination would be to work with Lynn Olson's Ariel parallel crossover design:
The Ariel, Part II

Seems to me you really only have to get the treble level right, because everything else is similar.
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Old 30th September 2012, 03:27 PM   #48
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Hi,

Can you test a 1st/second order ? I think you can improve the mid treble..

To do this it is very easy, to the tweeter add a 0.33mH inductor in parallel after the 6.8uF and add a RL in parallel after the 0.22mH on the woofers R=3.3 ohms, C=33uF could be electrolytic.
If you improve the sound let us know
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Old 30th September 2012, 04:50 PM   #49
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

Though Lynn Olson could talk for a continent of the subject of loudspeakers,
one thing for a fact is the Ariel steadfastly completely ignores the baffle step,
seems the loss of sensitivity is too much for the overall design philosophy.

Crossover design is complex, and there are no short cuts. Sometimes
though through more luck than anything else you can stumble onto
a good arrangement, but its far more likely you will be playing with
arrangements none of which resemble any sensible objective target.

Its my opinion the only way of designing a proper crossover
is subjectively comparing proper objective arrangements.

rgds, sreten.
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Last edited by sreten; 30th September 2012 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 30th September 2012, 05:06 PM   #50
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ingvar ahlberg View Post
I design/build with one aim only, to get something that
conveys music the way i like in a purely subjective way.
Hi,

You can't design anything without some sort of objective method that
you think leads to your subjective goals. Poor method leads to not
being able to examine all your options objectively and subjectively.

The more rigorous your objective skills, the more you know what
you have a subjective opinion about. As stated by many speaker
designers, building speakers with expensive drivers and not much
know how really isn't the way to go for proper speaker design.

rgds, sreten.
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