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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 25th September 2012, 03:26 PM   #21
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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I run a pair of modified Altec A5s in my listening room. Altec's VOTT speaker for "Small Cinemas".
The stand about 5 feet tall, are 30" wide and 24" deep. The bass boxes have a gross volume near 15 cubic feet. I would have a hard time accepting anything smaller for serious listening.
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Old 25th September 2012, 03:31 PM   #22
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A picture of my test box. It is 48" tall, 25" wide, 15" deep...
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Last edited by LafeEric; 25th September 2012 at 03:36 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 25th September 2012, 03:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I run a pair of modified Altec A5s in my listening room. Altec's VOTT speaker for "Small Cinemas".
The stand about 5 feet tall, are 30" wide and 24" deep. The bass boxes have a gross volume near 15 cubic feet. I would have a hard time accepting anything smaller for serious listening.
In answer to your question - yes, I AM jealous!
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Old 25th September 2012, 04:22 PM   #24
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thanks for sharing guys. I've seen Pano's room on another post - jealous? me? LafeEric, seems we like the same sort of idea!!

So what are your thoughts for the bottom end? driver options and alignment options?
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Old 25th September 2012, 04:26 PM   #25
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I also like large drivers and still believe that You cant beat qubic inches.

But, i don´t like x-overs, especially if they´re used in the fundamental voice region, say 300-3kHz.

This means i have to use LF drivers that are very good in the voice area, 10-12" is, in my opinion, the best choice for this.
We still want the fantastic low level dynamics that large drivers deliver, what to do?

First try, turned out really ok, was this:

Click the image to open in full size.

A tiny litle speaker that actually is allmost a 2-way design, the larger of the round parts is a Beyma 21L50, this ,unfortunately out of production, 21" driver is lowpassed at about 85Hz, the smaller round thing is a Beyma 10G40, only lowpassed at about 3k, firing backwards in what could be regarded as a TQWT but with exponential expansion.

The square thing is a Beyma TPL150, AMT driver, system sensitivity at around 100dB and fantastic low-level dynamics.

It moved furniture at pretty modest levels so the 21" was perhaps a bit too large for our livingroom.

What to do then?

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Old 25th September 2012, 04:40 PM   #26
badman is offline badman  United States
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
I remember the VOT and others. Fine if you need to fill a stadium. Useless and pretty terrible sounding in a house.

The old rule of a decade still seems to be pretty sound. 20 to 200, 200 to 2K and 2K to 20K. About right for a nice 12 inch three way. The market in available drivers tends to the sub (20 to 80) a 5 to 7 inch mid-bass for 65 or so to 2K , and a 1 inch tweeter because that is 99% of the market. Really decent mids are very few. You just don't really need a 4-way in a house. Extra complication and cost for no real advantage.

Now, I am talking only about high quality sound. When I was about 14, I thought bigger was better.

The other thing I need to remind folks of. Unless you live in a stand-alone house, you can't use any bass below 50 to 60 Hz anyway without making a lot of people mad. I can't remember how many times here someone in an apartment wants to build those 15 inch subs! Low frequencies travel for miles and have no respect for the walls.
Big speakers unleash the music. Little speakers constrain it.
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Old 25th September 2012, 05:01 PM   #27
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So, working on a project for a local restaurant i found a very nice 8" driver, Faital 8PR200.

Click the image to open in full size.

This tiny driver showed a dynamic behaviour that i´ve never found i this size so i thought, could we use this in a real speaker, reproducing music the way it, to my ears, sound?

We could, we put two of them in a rearloaded horn.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Even the production manager approved of this.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 25th September 2012, 05:12 PM   #28
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Interesting Ingvar!

What type of CD and horn is that? Got any curves or measurements on those speakers?
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Old 25th September 2012, 05:15 PM   #29
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I had these small active towers few years ago.... too small for me really!

2x 18"
2x 8"
2x 5"
AMT
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Old 25th September 2012, 05:34 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
2x 12" will have no advantage in low bass
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Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
now I'm confused Can you explain? - I'm learning all the time
I believe J Gordon Holt once wrote, "A speaker needs to move four times farther with each decreasing octave, a fact with which Paul Klipsch liked to impress customers and scare small children."

When the cone size greatly exceeds the voice coil diameter there's an inevitable loss of control, i.e., distortion arises. The answer is make the cone thicker, which means heavier, which means less highs, hence large cones are used for woofers and subs. But in that range below 100Hz, the best way to reduce distortion is to reduce the cone motion, and that means using even more surface area (or a HUGE horn, ala Klipsch).

So, for deep bass, there is no substitute for diameter, as increasing excursion is fraught with problems. (I've only mentioned cone breakup; there are also doppler effects, Xmax limits, port chuffing, etc.)

The other thing to consider is two 12s are wider than one 15, so that lowers the effective cross-over point. JBL ran their woofers as high as possible for max SPL, the relatively huge mid drivers were big for the same reason. It worked, but the younger engineers these days are favouring using smaller monitors closer to the console, as they're tired of yelling at the older engineers who can't hear anymore.

For a reasonable compromise, I suggest a low end target of 40Hz, which is low enough for most music, given that we interpret lows by their overtones. For this, at volumes that don't require ear protection, two 12s will suffice, and will maintain the look of the big JBLs. Strictly speaking, one 15 or two vertical 12s would be better, but if we use a good (full-range?) mid, we can cross over low enough to negate the extra width.

The end result will be a box about the size of a Marshall 4x12, and those are a one-man-carry if you put handles on the side, and will fit in most cars. I think we've expressed the idea bigger is better, but lets address portability, as well.

Arguments against?

Last edited by Keriwena; 25th September 2012 at 05:41 PM.
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