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Old 1st September 2012, 09:07 PM   #11
H Burch is offline H Burch  United Kingdom
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mmmm. very irritating, the unit on ebay sold to the auto bidding thingy. as a radical idea what would you think of rewiring the crossover to a two way and leaving out the mids. these are going to be part of a bigger system with subs taking care of the bottom predominantly. would it be possible to bypass the mid range of the crossover and cross the high and low at maybe 1500hz or a bit above? is this feasable?
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Old 2nd September 2012, 05:21 AM   #12
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Be very difficult to turn these into a 2-way really. I just don't know what crossover values to use. That tweeter had a tendency to blow at parties when driven hard on a low crossover point around 1.2-1.5kHz. Reason being it really didn't like the excess midrange it was having to deal with. It would be hard also to guess how to raise the woofer crossover point.

At a guess you might run the woofer just on the 4mH coil to extend its response, and disconnect the midrange crossover components altogether because undamped crossover sections without drive units do horrible resonant things to amps. I might then experiment with some modest rolloff on the bass with a shunt of about 10uF and 2 ohms 10W wirewound. You'll be struggling with the harsh cone breakup of the woofer above 2kHz. Very DIY, but then we ARE!

FWIW, I did dig up some details on the Wharfedale Linton 3XP kit which was similar apart from a smaller bass unit and 1000Hz/4000Hz crossover. Here is your crossover for comparison, along with the Linton 3XP one. I found some photos of the Linton 3XP crossover which resolved some of the values.
Wharfedale Linton 3xp - a set on Flickr

Old Non Polars like yours will be ageing badly by now. Falcon Acoustics do 50V non-polar electrolytic replacements which would be worth investigating.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wharfedale_Glendale_3XP_Crossover.JPG (141.6 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg Wharfedale_Linton_3XP_Crossover_1.JPG (91.4 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg Wharfedale_Linton_3XP_Crossover_2.JPG (104.5 KB, 90 views)
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Old 2nd September 2012, 05:38 AM   #13
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I have just finished my summer project
and it sounds very good
the idea was to use a tiny speaker as a mid-tw , attached to a BIG waveguide .
So I ended with a Monacor SPX21 with a 20 cm waveguide (an old woofer cone )
and a Vifa 20 cm woofer . Crossover is very easy and the crossover frequency
is around 500 Hz .
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Old 2nd September 2012, 08:15 AM   #14
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Hmm, was I the only person scratching my head over doubtless worthy picowallspeaker's contribution there.

I did a bit of modelling in Visaton Boxsim. Looks like a twoway conversion might be doable.

I roughly quartered the 25uF bass shunt capacitor to 6.8uF to roughly double the rolloff frequency from its original 800Hz. Then bumped up the tweeter crossover from 4uF/0.2mH to 4.7uF/0.4mH to increase its midrange output to fill the hole. The components in red are optional if the tweeter is too bright. It's my guess at the Zobel value plus a bit of tweeter rolloff at very HF, because I believe the Wharfedale tweeter is a bit peaky at the top end.

This sort of approach is very rough and ready because I really don't know much about the drivers, but nothing will break although you've lost about 6dB Max SPL on the tweeter, so I can't guarantee it won't fry at parties.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wharfdale_Glendale_TwoWay_Conversion.JPG (20.1 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg Wharfdale_Glendale_TwoWay_FreqResp.JPG (89.6 KB, 88 views)
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Old 2nd September 2012, 09:18 AM   #15
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THX

Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Best I can see is this £33 89dB Monacor MSH-115
For about the same price , you could go with the more pricey (compared to the SPX 21 ) SPX 20 , which allows for a little more power ; 8 Ω impedance would then mean using about 10 uF + 2 mH for highpass, for a Fc of 1000 Hz .
A little step above using a 10 Wmax tweeter , so it could stand 'party levels' .
A waveguide would improve its dispersion though improving directivity and allowing more control over the project .
Housing it in the box is just an irritating tought . Much better outside .
Also the box itself might be reconsidered , so I would suggest to start from scratch the whole project . Diameter of the wire of the lowpass coil for the woofer has not been mentioned ; using 1 mm or more brings betterments , but also alters woofer ( in box ) Qts .
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Old 3rd September 2012, 04:21 PM   #16
H Burch is offline H Burch  United Kingdom
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hello,
'do-able' is good enough for me, this is my first project involving the actual electronics of the speakers and there is no chance of them being briven hard. they are for a small flat which doesnt need volume atall. tested them with a 2 x 1watt amp when got them and that was actually pretty much fine volume wise. the other speakes im planing to build will be the power of the setup, these are just because i like them. so i am very happy to rebuild the crossover as a 2 way instead.

if someone could help me along with that in terms of what i need to buy etc and which parts of old crossover can be used i would be very much gratefull.

worst case scenario is they dont work and rewire the crossovers back and start again.

thanks Hugh
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Old 4th September 2012, 04:12 AM   #17
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Let's do a review of where you are right now, Hugh. You have some splendid old Wharfedale cabinets probably around 35 litres. A decent 10" bass and 4mH slope coil prearranged so decent bass and still serviceable. This sort of speaker would cost near a £1000 these days. Blown midrange and a rather aged tweeter is your problem.

To me, this decent old cabinet and bass is just crying out for new midrange and tweeter drivers.

I could suggest you think near £250 in new drivers and crossover. Visaton have a modelling program called Boxsim that will allow you to design a dome midrange and tweeter to suit your setup. The dome midrange Visaton G50 FFL would not only fit your baffle, but give you a system of extraordinary ability along wth almost any Tweeter you fancy.
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories

You might study Troels Gravesen's 3 Way Classic to get an idea of what is doable here.

But for now, for the two way conversion, which will not be as smooth as a 3 way because you're going to hear some rough cone breakup from the bass above 1kHz, you just need some smallish 250V polypropylene capacitors as suggested. 4.7uF and 6.8uF, along with a 0.6mm wire aircore 0.4mH coil. Looks like you'll have to drill out a few pop rivets to modify the crossover as to my schematic. You can hotglue or nylon ziptie the new components. Try Falcon Acoustics or Wilmslow Audio for the bits. You'll also need an electric soldering iron, a solder sucker and some new solder. With soldering, the idea is to use a hot gun and get in and out QUICKLY. Maybe less than 5 seconds to avoid baking components. With coils you need to scrape off the enamel on the ends to get good tinning. Capacitors also benefit form being pre-tinned before final application. Soldering is about being fast and confident and bailing out quickly if it gets problematic. LOL
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Last edited by system7; 4th September 2012 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 4th September 2012, 03:33 PM   #18
H Burch is offline H Burch  United Kingdom
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ideally i would like to keep them as are but i dont have a spare £250 to play with for this. i get the two way conversion i think with your schematic (thankyou). i am quite tempted to build fresh two way crossovers with new components matching the originals for now and maybe keep eye out for new mid driver in the future, would this work?

or

do you think running the speakers as they are now but placing them together in the room would sound ok with one mid out? if i disconnect the driver for safety?.

they have an output on the back where the terminals are for linking another speaker on the same channel and i was considering this running from a mono source so i can use them now without loosing the mid from one channel, in essence having two woofers and tweeters and one mid. would this work? and if it does would it change the impedance of the setup?

thanks Hugh
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Old 4th September 2012, 03:42 PM   #19
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I really suggest to try a pair of Monacor SPX 20/21
If the woofer is a 10" , a big waveguide to help the little mid-tw to raise the SPL,
specially at crossover frequency , which would still be determined by the 4 mH coil .
Just cover solidly the holes , remove the internal tube ( awful)
And you're done !
Place the Monacor+20cmWaveguide above the box ( which is turned upside down ) , make a simple 2nd
order high pass ....

Last edited by picowallspeaker; 4th September 2012 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 4th September 2012, 07:48 PM   #20
H Burch is offline H Burch  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by picowallspeaker View Post
I really suggest to try a pair of Monacor SPX 20/21
If the woofer is a 10" , a big waveguide to help the little mid-tw to raise the SPL,
specially at crossover frequency , which would still be determined by the 4 mH coil .
Just cover solidly the holes , remove the internal tube ( awful)
And you're done !
Place the Monacor+20cmWaveguide above the box ( which is turned upside down ) , make a simple 2nd
order high pass ....

i like the sound of this but not to sharp on the idea of waveguards etc. could you enlighten me please?
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