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Old 19th August 2012, 02:24 PM   #1
Tube747 is offline Tube747  Hong Kong
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Default TDL DIY, any comments?

My friend has sent me a link about TDL Reference Standard for DIY builder, is that FAITHFUL to the original design?

Is that a Proper plan to build the speakers?

Any comments for the driver selection since the ones on the speaker should be hard to locate (eg KEF B139)?

General | TDL DIY Guy

Thanks!
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Old 19th August 2012, 02:57 PM   #2
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tube747 View Post
is that FAITHFUL to the original design?

Is that a Proper plan to build the speakers?

Thanks!
Hi,

Not really. There is nowhere near enough information, modelling
or design for it to remotely approach a proper building plan.

They may end up lookalikes, but not soundalikes.

The K&T "homage" version might be worthwhile if you
can decipher all the details and get the same drivers.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 19th August 2012, 04:01 PM   #3
sayrum is offline sayrum  Germany
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the xover schematic and cabinet plan is detailled and afaiu complet, so all you need are the original drivers

a. oberhage still develops and desugns speakers, just connect with him.

good luck with your project!
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Old 19th August 2012, 09:26 PM   #4
AuroraB is offline AuroraB  Norway
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Location: Norway, -north of the moral circle..
I did have most of the original TDL drawings, including the Reference, but two house moves have clobbered the system that wasn't.....
I'll have a quick look, but don't count on it...

OTOH - assuming one could get the original or technically equivalent elements, how would these designs hold against modern designs and theory.... ? The Reference was a truly tempting design when it was released.....
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Old 19th August 2012, 11:44 PM   #5
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuroraB View Post
The Reference was a truly tempting design when it was released.....
Hi,

That is highly debatable. Expensive, yes. Top of the line, yes.

By modern standards probably pretty clueless. MJK has analysed
IMF/TDL TL loading and generally didn't like what he found. Lots of
drivers = very loud, but generally that's not necessary domestically.

As the writer in the link notes, quite probably : Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower
will walk all over a half baked attempt at a lookalike in most domestic environments.

Bang for buck IMO :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
Is even better value than the SB12.3.

Don't imagine for a second a very large complex and expensive build
based on very dodgy premises is a route to audio nirvana, it isn't.

See the Troels G and Tony G sites below for serious exotica.

rgds, sreten.

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=219617
http://www.zaphaudio.com
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/
http://audio.claub.net/Simple%20Loud...ign%20ver2.pdf
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200909021...esigningXO.htm
http://www.rjbaudio.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200909022...ve99/Spkrbldg/
http://speakerdesignworks.com/
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/david/david.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html
http://www.quarter-wave.com/
http://www.frugal-horn.com/
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.musicanddesign.com/

Great free SPICE Emulator : http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fold...t/tina-ti.html
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Last edited by sreten; 19th August 2012 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 12:21 AM   #6
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Smile Some comments from the TDL DIY Guy

I'm delighted that anyone would even consider my ramblings a "design". My site is nothing more than a record of my experiences as I attempt to build a speaker similar enough to the RSTL M that it entertains me. Perhaps someday my thoughts will be collected enough to be considered a design. My intent is not a faithful reproduction of the original. All the drivers were custom-made for the RSTL (e.g. it does NOT use the KEF B139), so to even find the right drivers is a royal pain (and expensive).

To respond to a few of the comments...

sayrum, nobody at AOS (oberhage) has responded to my requests for information or parts. A friend of mine tried as well and also got no response. If you have any "pull" with Axel, I'd love to find out more about their former RSTL kit.

AuroraB, if you can find any of those plans, I'd be most appreciative! If found a number of articles over time, but all from hobbyist mags, none of the originals.

sreten, do you happen to have a link to Martin's analysis (I don't mean this confrontational way, I'd love to see it)? I haven't modeled the original drivers, but the TB W8Q-1071F that I plan to use models extremely well in the RSTL line using his modeling tools. I also don't imagine he's tried modeling the RSTL as he posted several times on his forum that he doesn't know how to model drivers with dissimilar properties loaded in a single line, as the RSTL has.

So if you're looking for a speaker that is a blast from the past - keep going because this is a new speaker. If you're looking for a new speaker that looks like a blast from the past AND are very patient, check back at my site now and then and maybe someday I'll have a "design". If you're looking for the best sound per dollar spent, keep going because most if not all of the speakers on sreten's list will likely sound better, at least per dollar. But I'm having a ball and doing this for myself, so I don't care that I could get a better speaker by just picking one off the list and building it.

Cheers,
Frank (TDL DIY Guy)
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Old 22nd August 2012, 01:50 AM   #7
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I do agree that they look very cool. With modern drivers the sound will be different than the old original of course, but typically modern drivers should be better IF used wisely.
I would not strive for the same internal TL layout, but rather use a layout that matches the best simulation for the Tang band speakers your are interested in. In essence, keep only the external looks which you like so much.
And then there are challenges to design a good crossover, but of course for us hobbyists that is part of the fun.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 02:08 AM   #8
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Attaboy Frank
I love the "LOOK" of these and for a while i was collecting drivers to make a clone in"Homage" to the design. I stopped because I came to the realisation that I could never
A Afford the drivers
B Would never have a room big enough to show them off
Now if someone could suggest an affordable set of drivers that would work in this format I may be willing to change SWMBOs mind for her
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:34 AM   #9
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
sreten, do you happen to have a link to Martin's analysis
Hi,

No. I just recall him mentioning that the premise that a large chamber
with a line running off it doesn't really work as a low pass filter and
consequently better line layouts are available.

I think it was in a thread about Dalines. The Dalines are a fine example
of Fried "bigging up" some very mundane and downright poor design.

rgds, sreten.

(FWIW I haven't got the time of day for IMF's main "designer".)
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Old 22nd August 2012, 01:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
Hi,

No. I just recall him mentioning that the premise that a large chamber
with a line running off it doesn't really work as a low pass filter and
consequently better line layouts are available.

I think it was in a thread about Dalines. The Dalines are a fine example
of Fried "bigging up" some very mundane and downright poor design.

rgds, sreten.

(FWIW I haven't got the time of day for IMF's main "designer".)
Thank you, I'll look for that discussion on his site or forum.

G. L. Augspurger, whose software models agree very closely with MJK's, said this in his Speaker Builder 4/2000 article "Transmission Lines Updated Part 3: Pipe Geometry and Optimized Alignments":

Quote:
Many successful transmission-line designs have also used coupling chambers. ... Since the speaker cone is coupled to the pipe by the chamber's air springiness, the resulting R/C lowpass filter adds another 6dB per octave of high-frequency rolloff. You can clearly see this in Fig 15.
In the next day or so I'll place my simulations of the W8Q-1071F in the RSTL line up on my site. I find it quite compelling.

BTW, I must take exception to your comment "Lots of drivers = very loud". The RSTL uses two bass drivers not for extra output, but rather to work synergistically - one driver is 8 ohm, one is 16 ohm. The theory is that one driver is filling in the frequency where the other has its first resonant null. I don't think "clueless" is a fair assessment of this design. I'd be glad to pontificate at length about other "modern" features of this design (don't get me started!). There are a few areas where research has moved forward since the original was designed though. That's why I'm so interested to see if I can find plans for the 'M' (AuroraB?) - to see if any changes were made in these areas.

The last point I'll make for now is that the relationship between Bud Fried and IMF is a complex one. Read this letter from a Director of IMF and you'll get a clear picture that Bud wasn't IMF, despite the fact it bore his initials.
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