Neither I am working on a set of speakers that are way above the budget of both of those... (full active speakers ~$15k pair)
sreten has posted a link to the BOM for the ZDT3.5 which seems complete enough to build a set of those, and I have to agree with sreten, bang for buck I think I would go the Zaph.
Question is are you building to a budget, or because you want something better?
Both the mini statements or the ZDT3.5 aren't going to be a massive improvement over what you already have, they will just be different.
Better costs money, there is no escaping that, but some drivers represent better value than others, and there is a point of diminishing returns.
Like all projects you are limited by the weakest link, or looking at that same statement from the flip side, to have something that really knocks your socks off, you are going to need everything to be of the same high standard.
If you start looking at the project from the angle of what you can afford, then before you know it you are compromising on everything and won't be much better off.
If you approach it from the angle of quality, the price will be forgotten long before your enjoyment does.
That was why I was suggesting that might want to consider building half a speaker for now (tweeter and mid) and build the bottom end later on.
The best musical speakers I have ever owned were a pair of bookshelf Sonus Faber Electa Amator II's. My current Sonus Faber Cremonas are full floor standers and cost ~$6k more $7.2k Vs $13k, but the quality of the drivers in the Cremonas are not as good as the EAII's.
I honestly believe you can build as good if not better for a considerable lot less than name brands, but it does take a lot of research and effort.
I am building because I want a better set of speakers but I am on a budget, not super tight but not $15k either. I honestly don't mind to spend $1200 - $1500 on components for the mains with the center and the sub falling into a similar component range per speaker.
I hate to drop a bunch of money on something that I have never heard so I am thinking about building a center first to see how the highs and miss do vs. my current setup. If I like it, then I continue, if not then I sell it...I figure the sub is the easy part and may as well be built early on since dual 12's will be a benefit even with my current setup.
Of course without evaluating every component in my system I don't know where the weak links are...I might be just as happy with my current setup going through a vacuum preamp and a nice 2ch amp for music...how much better can a integra receiver sound regardless of speakers?
I hate to drop a bunch of money on something that I have never heard so I am thinking about building a center first to see how the highs and miss do vs. my current setup. If I like it, then I continue, if not then I sell it...I figure the sub is the easy part and may as well be built early on since dual 12's will be a benefit even with my current setup.
Of course without evaluating every component in my system I don't know where the weak links are...I might be just as happy with my current setup going through a vacuum preamp and a nice 2ch amp for music...how much better can a integra receiver sound regardless of speakers?
There have been many good suggestions put forward, and having spent some time listening to what you currently have, I am confident there is a solution to be had without spending mega bucks... but to get to the next level (or three) is going to take some risk, and take you into unfamiliar territory.
For example as I said I am going active... I have gone from my initial idea of just building something the next step up from what I have, to completely new ground.
The first thing you need to know about building speakers is there is no one right way to build a speaker, but there are plenty of wrong ways...
Music is extremely subjective and people will try to convince you that what they have is the bees knees because it is right for them (myself included), but may sound horrible to you. But having said that there are some things that people do tend to universally agree on from time to time.
Drivers are only part of the equation.... a cheap crossover / components can make or break a speaker, as can a badly designed cross over.
So far we have only really looked at the over the counter type kits using regular ported enclosures, but there are many more options out there.
For example I plan to make a few different enclosures for my drivers, the first direction I plan to try is an open baffle design, while not the prettiest to look at, it is considered to create less colour due to the absence of an enclosed cabinet. Also it removes the need for a lot of complicated designs.
Going active at this point might be out of your budget but there is nothing stops you aiming for that, but going passive for now. I doubt there would be many people that would argue that going active won't result in better, cleaner music (but there will be always be at least one that argues the point).
Couple this with electronic adjustment of crossover points, and for the novice it can ultimately save you money in experimenting with crossovers.
I have gone with some gear from Robert who is a member on this forum Ground Sound but you don't need to go over the top and get the DCN28 like me but you can step up your system from passive to active for a reasonable outlay with the DCN23 and 24 kits.
And before you decide on any kit have a read of this website RAAL - ADVANCED LOUDSPEAKERS The reason I ultimately decided on the RAAL is because of the lack of negative comments on the web.
It was a leap of faith since I have never heard them, but everything I read indicates that it will produce the very natural and neutral sound I like.
Don't know if I would agree that a sub is an easy speaker to build, in fact I would say just the opposite... Getting a "great" sub operational takes a lot of hard work and careful selection.
FYI... I just took my Rotel RSP1570 out of the loop to cut down on components that can effect the clarity of sound. I now play directly from my Oppo BDP83SE to my Rotel RB1092 amp.
For example as I said I am going active... I have gone from my initial idea of just building something the next step up from what I have, to completely new ground.
The first thing you need to know about building speakers is there is no one right way to build a speaker, but there are plenty of wrong ways...
Music is extremely subjective and people will try to convince you that what they have is the bees knees because it is right for them (myself included), but may sound horrible to you. But having said that there are some things that people do tend to universally agree on from time to time.
Drivers are only part of the equation.... a cheap crossover / components can make or break a speaker, as can a badly designed cross over.
So far we have only really looked at the over the counter type kits using regular ported enclosures, but there are many more options out there.
For example I plan to make a few different enclosures for my drivers, the first direction I plan to try is an open baffle design, while not the prettiest to look at, it is considered to create less colour due to the absence of an enclosed cabinet. Also it removes the need for a lot of complicated designs.
Going active at this point might be out of your budget but there is nothing stops you aiming for that, but going passive for now. I doubt there would be many people that would argue that going active won't result in better, cleaner music (but there will be always be at least one that argues the point).
Couple this with electronic adjustment of crossover points, and for the novice it can ultimately save you money in experimenting with crossovers.
I have gone with some gear from Robert who is a member on this forum Ground Sound but you don't need to go over the top and get the DCN28 like me but you can step up your system from passive to active for a reasonable outlay with the DCN23 and 24 kits.
And before you decide on any kit have a read of this website RAAL - ADVANCED LOUDSPEAKERS The reason I ultimately decided on the RAAL is because of the lack of negative comments on the web.
It was a leap of faith since I have never heard them, but everything I read indicates that it will produce the very natural and neutral sound I like.
Don't know if I would agree that a sub is an easy speaker to build, in fact I would say just the opposite... Getting a "great" sub operational takes a lot of hard work and careful selection.
FYI... I just took my Rotel RSP1570 out of the loop to cut down on components that can effect the clarity of sound. I now play directly from my Oppo BDP83SE to my Rotel RB1092 amp.
This strikes me as a reasonable combination... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...e-aligned-constrained-layer-construction.html
Thank you for all your responses. And just to clarify, although I have been focused on these kits I am not hung up on a kit, but I do want a proven design. It just so happens that the kits get mentioned more than anything else (say specific speakers from Troels).
That speaker looks fantastic btw, but my WAF factor just changed after the realization of how much deeper some of these speakers are (dammit). I essentially have to keep them the same size (10x16x47) which I think limits me to 8" max woofers...perhaps a scaled down version of that tower would work which could be similar to some of the Troels designs it seems.
That speaker looks fantastic btw, but my WAF factor just changed after the realization of how much deeper some of these speakers are (dammit). I essentially have to keep them the same size (10x16x47) which I think limits me to 8" max woofers...perhaps a scaled down version of that tower would work which could be similar to some of the Troels designs it seems.
Hi,
You can talk about this until the cows come going round in circles.
How much your prepared to spend often has little to do with what
will make you happy but a lot to do with what will disappoint you.
Clear goals and reasonable expectations help a lot up the very
slippery slope of cost / effort versus expected quality results.
Your current L&R are clearly designed for no additional sub.
If your planning on adding a sub change your mindset.
rgds, sreten.
You can talk about this until the cows come going round in circles.
How much your prepared to spend often has little to do with what
will make you happy but a lot to do with what will disappoint you.
Clear goals and reasonable expectations help a lot up the very
slippery slope of cost / effort versus expected quality results.
Your current L&R are clearly designed for no additional sub.
If your planning on adding a sub change your mindset.
rgds, sreten.
Yes, that is the point of the thread; to discuss this topic with those who have been there and gain information to make informed decisions. If I knew exactly what I wanted or how to get it I wouldn't need to be posting here.
It comes back to that old chestnut… you don’t know what you don’t know… But what you are looking for is coming into focus.
Originally I thought you were planning on keeping the Polks for HT and wanting to build some stereo speakers. Trying to get the same speakers to do both is going to be a compromise there is no getting away from that.
But building some speakers and adding a subwoofer for bass music / movies is not really the answer either.
So let’s evaluate what you have verses what you are looking for…
Your desire for neutral / natural sound is because the Polks are so heavily altered to produce a perceived desired mass market sound, there is little room for the purist.
Firstly let’s call a spade a spade. The Polks are like a bull in a china shop when it comes to bass, they are a smack across the back of the head courtesy of the active bass in each of the speakers, it is muddy and poorly blended into the sound stage as a whole.
To be honest Polk might have been better off just shipping the speakers with two separate subwoofers. What you need to be to enjoy music is a fast tight bass that is smoothly blended into the bottom end of the speakers frequency range.
Again horse for courses, smack in the back of the head for home theatre is perfectly fine… For music is a big no-no (unless your into butza music).
So to achieve a full range that has enough bottom end to satisfy your music desires, but still have enough balls to cope with home theatre you need to be looking in another direction. You are going to have to let go of the skinny width of the Polks and go a few inches wider to get a decent base driver in there that will do the job. The active bass was Polks poor attempt to make a smaller driver do the job of a bigger driver, the floor loaded driver and various other crossover abortions were all used to up the bass volume.
The mids were also pumped up to try match the overstated bass, and again this was done via some kind of meatball crossover / driver. The highs are somewhat lacking courtesy of a fairly ordinary tweeter (used the same tweeter myself in my first set of DIY speakers, and they are what you get for the price).
Now let’s look at what you want (or my perception of it) You are looking for an even sound that is neither over or understated, you are looking to lose the unnatural sound and want hear an instrument sound like it does in real life. You want to hear the most subtle of nuances in the track, not have them lost in the bang, crash, thump.
Originally I thought you were planning on keeping the Polks for HT and wanting to build some stereo speakers. Trying to get the same speakers to do both is going to be a compromise there is no getting away from that.
But building some speakers and adding a subwoofer for bass music / movies is not really the answer either.
So let’s evaluate what you have verses what you are looking for…
Your desire for neutral / natural sound is because the Polks are so heavily altered to produce a perceived desired mass market sound, there is little room for the purist.
Firstly let’s call a spade a spade. The Polks are like a bull in a china shop when it comes to bass, they are a smack across the back of the head courtesy of the active bass in each of the speakers, it is muddy and poorly blended into the sound stage as a whole.
To be honest Polk might have been better off just shipping the speakers with two separate subwoofers. What you need to be to enjoy music is a fast tight bass that is smoothly blended into the bottom end of the speakers frequency range.
Again horse for courses, smack in the back of the head for home theatre is perfectly fine… For music is a big no-no (unless your into butza music).
So to achieve a full range that has enough bottom end to satisfy your music desires, but still have enough balls to cope with home theatre you need to be looking in another direction. You are going to have to let go of the skinny width of the Polks and go a few inches wider to get a decent base driver in there that will do the job. The active bass was Polks poor attempt to make a smaller driver do the job of a bigger driver, the floor loaded driver and various other crossover abortions were all used to up the bass volume.
The mids were also pumped up to try match the overstated bass, and again this was done via some kind of meatball crossover / driver. The highs are somewhat lacking courtesy of a fairly ordinary tweeter (used the same tweeter myself in my first set of DIY speakers, and they are what you get for the price).
Now let’s look at what you want (or my perception of it) You are looking for an even sound that is neither over or understated, you are looking to lose the unnatural sound and want hear an instrument sound like it does in real life. You want to hear the most subtle of nuances in the track, not have them lost in the bang, crash, thump.
You hit it perfectly and just to clarify, I do wish to replace the polks in pursuit of a more neutral / natural setup. I would rather compromise on the HT end then the music end...as long as I have a center speaker that does its job well and a sub (maybe) that can shake things up a bit I will be happy.
Can I assume in your note regarding speaker width that you are advocating a minimum of 10" woofers for the low end?
THX
Not necessarily… Whilst size is roughly proportional to depth of bass, it is not a locked proportion.
For example you could get an 8” that might perform just as well as a 10”, but it is unlikely that that same 8” will outperform (go lower) a 12” or 15”
So it then becomes a juggling act and trade off. How tight or fast a driver is can be linked to a couple of factors including magnet size and moving mass.
Think of it like this.. a speaker cone could be likened to a piston in your car. A big heavy piston will take more energy to stop and return at the end of its stroke then a lightweight piston.
So the weight of the cone can have a big impact on the crispness of the driver, as can the magnet size, the more torque the engine has the faster it can accelerate the piston. The bigger the magnet the more punch it can deliver to the cone.
Now in order to get low frequencies you have to move large volumes of air, that can only be done with a larger cone, so the trade-off begins how much speed are we prepared to sacrifice for lower frequencies.
That is an overly simplistic example of the effects of size but it does the job. Do you need an 8” or a 10”, that depends entirely on specific driver choice and your willingness to trade.
Often manufactures will use two drivers to up the cone area without making the cabinet overly wide, again this is a compromise for a slim line cabinet.
If music is your main preference you could go with a couple of tight 8” drivers to deliver oodles of bottom end and add a big sub for HT.
But don’t compromise the main speakers having full range because you will be using a sub. A well thought out sub should primarily be there just to shake the walls when you have an explosion, not drown your speaker.
For example you could get an 8” that might perform just as well as a 10”, but it is unlikely that that same 8” will outperform (go lower) a 12” or 15”
So it then becomes a juggling act and trade off. How tight or fast a driver is can be linked to a couple of factors including magnet size and moving mass.
Think of it like this.. a speaker cone could be likened to a piston in your car. A big heavy piston will take more energy to stop and return at the end of its stroke then a lightweight piston.
So the weight of the cone can have a big impact on the crispness of the driver, as can the magnet size, the more torque the engine has the faster it can accelerate the piston. The bigger the magnet the more punch it can deliver to the cone.
Now in order to get low frequencies you have to move large volumes of air, that can only be done with a larger cone, so the trade-off begins how much speed are we prepared to sacrifice for lower frequencies.
That is an overly simplistic example of the effects of size but it does the job. Do you need an 8” or a 10”, that depends entirely on specific driver choice and your willingness to trade.
Often manufactures will use two drivers to up the cone area without making the cabinet overly wide, again this is a compromise for a slim line cabinet.
If music is your main preference you could go with a couple of tight 8” drivers to deliver oodles of bottom end and add a big sub for HT.
But don’t compromise the main speakers having full range because you will be using a sub. A well thought out sub should primarily be there just to shake the walls when you have an explosion, not drown your speaker.
Some very good points Silent. Here's an example of a thin line sub (9" which wasn't a design goal). Btw, they cost less than a tank of gas to build and rattle the floors and walls.
They were designed here on DIY - and again thanks to the engineers!!
I'm a huge fan of smaller speakers that sound great, AND do not cost a lot.
The top speakers is Madisound's HDS kits, great for surrounds, sides, etc.
@ KB, More details the better, e.g.:
How many speakers are you going to use in the HT? 5.1 - 7.1
How big is the room?
What processor/amp(s) are you using? (more power Scotty!!)
They were designed here on DIY - and again thanks to the engineers!!
I'm a huge fan of smaller speakers that sound great, AND do not cost a lot.
The top speakers is Madisound's HDS kits, great for surrounds, sides, etc.
@ KB, More details the better, e.g.:
How many speakers are you going to use in the HT? 5.1 - 7.1
How big is the room?
What processor/amp(s) are you using? (more power Scotty!!)
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