New DIY sub in progress - Stryke AV12. Here is what I would like it to look like:
(please ignore the oversized vent - yes I know it is too big to fit in that box!
ATM I have a 70L test box and have so far experimented with sealed (including a 40L version) and vented with a 4" vent. It is controlled with a subwoofer processor kit from Jaycar with a 2nd order low pass filter, one band parametric eq and a rumble filter.
Problem: they don't integrate well with my transmission line main speaker! Midbass is lacking. They seem to lack the subtlety and musicality I'm looking for.
I want this to work well for both music and home theatre, but I don't want to have to trade off deep bass desirable for movies so I can get them to make accurate music! Music, however is the main priority.
In particular I wonder if I would be better off with a 4th order crossover so I can set it higher, but I don't think this will quite get the extra midbass.
Thanks for your input guys
cheers,
Paul
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(please ignore the oversized vent - yes I know it is too big to fit in that box!
ATM I have a 70L test box and have so far experimented with sealed (including a 40L version) and vented with a 4" vent. It is controlled with a subwoofer processor kit from Jaycar with a 2nd order low pass filter, one band parametric eq and a rumble filter.
Problem: they don't integrate well with my transmission line main speaker! Midbass is lacking. They seem to lack the subtlety and musicality I'm looking for.I want this to work well for both music and home theatre, but I don't want to have to trade off deep bass desirable for movies so I can get them to make accurate music! Music, however is the main priority.
In particular I wonder if I would be better off with a 4th order crossover so I can set it higher, but I don't think this will quite get the extra midbass.
Thanks for your input guys
cheers,
Paul
Hi Paul,
The link to the pic appears to be broken, It's not coming up for me anyway.
What xover freq are you using? How do the TL's sound if you run them by themelves with no high pass/sub? Do they still sound like they lack mid bass, or just deep bass?
Not sure I can really help, but hey I like to try
Regards,
Tony.
The link to the pic appears to be broken, It's not coming up for me anyway.
What xover freq are you using? How do the TL's sound if you run them by themelves with no high pass/sub? Do they still sound like they lack mid bass, or just deep bass?
Not sure I can really help, but hey I like to try
Regards,
Tony.
Geocities don't allow direct linking, copy/paste the link.
You will need to expriment with phase and room placement of the sub, also if the TL mains don't go down very low it will be very difficult to match with a conventional sub design, as you have found.
Have you considered a TL sub enclosure?
You will need to expriment with phase and room placement of the sub, also if the TL mains don't go down very low it will be very difficult to match with a conventional sub design, as you have found.
Have you considered a TL sub enclosure?
Volenti said:
Good thinking
Wicked looking subs Paul, I'm glad it's you and not me that's striving to get there though (lets just say I'm woodworkingly challenged)! Ive taken the liberty of uploading the pic
Regards,
Tony.
edit: Now that's weird as soon as I added the pic the original came up. So I have taken it out again, save some bandwidth
Hmmmm maybe it's cached. I'll put it back in............
Attachments
I'm not sure why the pic wouldn't work!!! Strange ... hard to know cos on my system it works hmmmm....
My TL's are fine. The midbass isn't particularly punchy, but they are also natural sounding and I was happy with them. I used to listen to them with the bass boost on though, I have yet to hear speakers that I thought had enough bass without some boost.
My TL's go down low. In the small room I have them in now, with a little bass boost they extension was such that they did a good job at HT as well and managed to capture some very low bass (for 6.5" drivers). I wanted the subs to let them relax a bit more, especially when I take them into a larger room. But it seems like I still need a little boost to try to fill in the gap - typically +4 db on the bass tone control. I would prefer not to do that so I can get more headroom on my mains.
Volenti:
I did consider TL subs, but have dispensed with the idea, mainly due to the size. Even Martin King didn't think it was worth pursuing!!! He suggested sealed. As I see it, a TL is an approximation of an IB sub with the only advantage over an IB to justify the huge box being increased control of excursion. It comes down to not being prepared to live with such a big box. I came up with a design using Martin King's Mathcad model, but it was too big! ... also I have already visited the Chiropractor after lifting my main TL speakers!
How do you suggest I mess with phase? My processor doesn't have phase control. According to a reliable source (I won't name names), phase controls on subs are useless, I'm unsure. Any thoughts?
Tony:
Yes it is a construction challenge. That will no doubt be another thread later on! ... I have a good idea of how I want to build it. I will construct a matrix of bracing with horizontal sheets setting up the curve. 3mm sheets of MDF will be bent around the curve formed by the bracing frame and glued together. This will give me a stylish and neat curve (I won't rely on planing or other arbitrary methods of getting a curve - I have had previous experience with that kind of tedium!!!)
I'm also considering applying two techniques of making an inert box:
1. lining the panels with a half inch layer of oil based modelling clay to dampen panel vibrations
2. constrained layer damping - a box within a box connected via silicon rubber or similar adhesive
Resolving construction challenges is the easy part at the moment!
cheers,
Paul
My TL's are fine. The midbass isn't particularly punchy, but they are also natural sounding and I was happy with them. I used to listen to them with the bass boost on though, I have yet to hear speakers that I thought had enough bass without some boost.
My TL's go down low. In the small room I have them in now, with a little bass boost they extension was such that they did a good job at HT as well and managed to capture some very low bass (for 6.5" drivers). I wanted the subs to let them relax a bit more, especially when I take them into a larger room. But it seems like I still need a little boost to try to fill in the gap - typically +4 db on the bass tone control. I would prefer not to do that so I can get more headroom on my mains.
Volenti:
I did consider TL subs, but have dispensed with the idea, mainly due to the size. Even Martin King didn't think it was worth pursuing!!! He suggested sealed. As I see it, a TL is an approximation of an IB sub with the only advantage over an IB to justify the huge box being increased control of excursion. It comes down to not being prepared to live with such a big box. I came up with a design using Martin King's Mathcad model, but it was too big! ... also I have already visited the Chiropractor after lifting my main TL speakers!
How do you suggest I mess with phase? My processor doesn't have phase control. According to a reliable source (I won't name names), phase controls on subs are useless, I'm unsure. Any thoughts?
Tony:
Yes it is a construction challenge. That will no doubt be another thread later on! ... I have a good idea of how I want to build it. I will construct a matrix of bracing with horizontal sheets setting up the curve. 3mm sheets of MDF will be bent around the curve formed by the bracing frame and glued together. This will give me a stylish and neat curve (I won't rely on planing or other arbitrary methods of getting a curve - I have had previous experience with that kind of tedium!!!)
I'm also considering applying two techniques of making an inert box:
1. lining the panels with a half inch layer of oil based modelling clay to dampen panel vibrations
2. constrained layer damping - a box within a box connected via silicon rubber or similar adhesive
Resolving construction challenges is the easy part at the moment!
cheers,
Paul
paulspencer said:
The sub may be out of phase (or partially) with the main speakers, simply swap the sub's wiring around and see if the bass improves (or worsens), at least that's one easy thing to tick off the "to do" list.
Also the relitive positions of the main speakers, the sub and the listening position can conspire to foul the base response up, try moving the sub around and listen for changes.
Rather than working in the dark, you might try measuring to see what is really happening.
The simplest way is to use the Radio Shack SPL meter as a mic, and download the demo version of ETF from www.etfacoustic.com.
That way you can see if you do have a mid bass deficiency or you are just not used to a different type of bass.
Cheers
Steve
The simplest way is to use the Radio Shack SPL meter as a mic, and download the demo version of ETF from www.etfacoustic.com.
That way you can see if you do have a mid bass deficiency or you are just not used to a different type of bass.
Cheers
Steve
G,day paul,
Its good to see you mate . Has been a while since i saw you last, jungie was telling me that you had built yourself a set of speakers. It would be good to catch up with you at some stage if i can and pic your brain for a bit of help as i am trying to build a set of speakers for myself. Didnt think i would run into you hear lmao.
Take care bro.
Tyrone,
Its good to see you mate
. Has been a while since i saw you last, jungie was telling me that you had built yourself a set of speakers. It would be good to catch up with you at some stage if i can and pic your brain for a bit of help as i am trying to build a set of speakers for myself. Didnt think i would run into you hear lmao. Take care bro.
Tyrone,
another thought ...
tonite had another thought - perhaps the amplifier I'm using (temporarily) is not up to the task. It's a 20 yo Akai integrated amp with pre-out/main in (which few budget amps seem to have). I'm borrowing this amp, my dad thinks it has only 30 watts RMS but I'd say 50 at least. It is a nice sounding amp, better in the highs than my NAD 2200 power amp (which needs fixing), but the NAD has more control over the bass, but it died before the subs came along.
I have heard that hifi power amps don't do very well at powering large PA drivers, that they lack the ability to control the large and powerful motor structures with tight control. Many have suggested that PA amps actually sound better for bass as they have tighter control and are able to handle higher voltages. I suspect that there will be a major improvement when I get the NAD fixed ...
aside: does anyone know someone in Melbourne who can fix NAD amps?
any thoughts on any of this?
UPDATE: I picked up the 2nd AV12 today and have started breaking it in
cheers,
Paul
tonite had another thought - perhaps the amplifier I'm using (temporarily) is not up to the task. It's a 20 yo Akai integrated amp with pre-out/main in (which few budget amps seem to have). I'm borrowing this amp, my dad thinks it has only 30 watts RMS but I'd say 50 at least. It is a nice sounding amp, better in the highs than my NAD 2200 power amp (which needs fixing), but the NAD has more control over the bass, but it died before the subs came along.
I have heard that hifi power amps don't do very well at powering large PA drivers, that they lack the ability to control the large and powerful motor structures with tight control. Many have suggested that PA amps actually sound better for bass as they have tighter control and are able to handle higher voltages. I suspect that there will be a major improvement when I get the NAD fixed ...
aside: does anyone know someone in Melbourne who can fix NAD amps?
any thoughts on any of this?
UPDATE: I picked up the 2nd AV12 today and have started breaking it in
cheers,
Paul
Well well.
Who would have guessed that you are a hi fi buff eh!
Mate i will give you a buzz some time and share some ideas with you that i have for a bracing structure that i would like to use. Hopefully it will reduce the amount of standing waves hitting the rear of the speaker. (forgive me if i use the wrong terminology as i havent got around to learning it all yet).
Any way mate i have to hit the sack and i will catch up with you another time.
Take care bro,
Tyrone
Ps, your right about not exspecting to see someone you know eh, what a blow out, i have been reading heaps of stuff on the net about this and i dont even know who i found this site, (clicked on a link maybe
)
later.
Who would have guessed that you are a hi fi buff eh!
Mate i will give you a buzz some time and share some ideas with you that i have for a bracing structure that i would like to use. Hopefully it will reduce the amount of standing waves hitting the rear of the speaker. (forgive me if i use the wrong terminology as i havent got around to learning it all yet).
Any way mate i have to hit the sack and i will catch up with you another time.
Take care bro,
Tyrone
Ps, your right about not exspecting to see someone you know eh, what a blow out, i have been reading heaps of stuff on the net about this and i dont even know who i found this site, (clicked on a link maybe
)later.
Xover too high??
Hi Paul,
Since you said the TL's sound good by themselves I'm thinking maybe you have crossed over too high, and the subs are somewhat lacking in the mid bass area. Alternatively maybe the output level of the sub is somewhat higher than that of the TL's making the mid bass appear to be lacking (in comparison to the new stronger bass).
So the two things I would suggest would be try with a lower crossover freq (you didn't mention what you are currently using), or try turning down the level on the Sub Amp (assuming you are using active xover and separate amp (which I'm doubting based on your comments about the Akai amp), or pad it down a little if passive. I don't really know anything about room gain, just what I have seen said in threads here, but maybe it has something to do with the imbalance in levels (if there is one).
Regards,
Tony.
Hi Paul,
Since you said the TL's sound good by themselves I'm thinking maybe you have crossed over too high, and the subs are somewhat lacking in the mid bass area. Alternatively maybe the output level of the sub is somewhat higher than that of the TL's making the mid bass appear to be lacking (in comparison to the new stronger bass).
So the two things I would suggest would be try with a lower crossover freq (you didn't mention what you are currently using), or try turning down the level on the Sub Amp (assuming you are using active xover and separate amp (which I'm doubting based on your comments about the Akai amp), or pad it down a little if passive. I don't really know anything about room gain, just what I have seen said in threads here, but maybe it has something to do with the imbalance in levels (if there is one).
Regards,
Tony.
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