I want to build a very nice set of bookshelf speakers. I was planning to buy high end components and had access to them at a reasonable price through an audio dealer/friend. he could get me tweeters and drivers from brands he sells for very reasonable prices (ie less than 1k for components to speakers 5-10 times that) although they might not perfectly match in the sense that the brand of the tweeter might be different from the brand of the woofer and I might be on my own building crossovers, finding binding posts, etc. He'd help me pick components that at least in theory would play well together.
I am a fairly experienced wood worker (I make mortise and tennon furniture for a hobby)
I also was recently offered a damaged pair of highly reviewed $1500 speakers that a friend has. the components are in good shape, but the boxes were damaged. He'd part with them for half price.
The beauty of this approach is that I would just have to build a box and all the components would match, the size could be dictated by the original so I'd know the crossover would be a good match, etc.
So here is the question I am pondering - which will be likely to sound better: the reconstructed speakers or a pair of speakers with even higher end components, but where I have to try to guess the right size/ shape of the box, the crossover, etc?
A few last comments, I can do the math if necessary - that is not a problem, but my ear is less good than my math skills so while I am fine at finding things I like musically, I am not as good at recognizing why something doesn't sound perfect to me. Also I've read a little about speaker building, but I've never done it before.
Any advice is welcome.
I am a fairly experienced wood worker (I make mortise and tennon furniture for a hobby)
I also was recently offered a damaged pair of highly reviewed $1500 speakers that a friend has. the components are in good shape, but the boxes were damaged. He'd part with them for half price.
The beauty of this approach is that I would just have to build a box and all the components would match, the size could be dictated by the original so I'd know the crossover would be a good match, etc.
So here is the question I am pondering - which will be likely to sound better: the reconstructed speakers or a pair of speakers with even higher end components, but where I have to try to guess the right size/ shape of the box, the crossover, etc?
A few last comments, I can do the math if necessary - that is not a problem, but my ear is less good than my math skills so while I am fine at finding things I like musically, I am not as good at recognizing why something doesn't sound perfect to me. Also I've read a little about speaker building, but I've never done it before.
Any advice is welcome.
I would advise that, unless you have a lot of experience designing crossovers, that you get the damaged pair and build a new set of cabinets for them.
There seems to be two sets of camps in the DIY loudspeaker genre:
Anyway, don't forget that a speaker box should not be built from hardwood like fine furniture. Damping of the walls/baffles and adsorption material is critical so that you do not have an acoustically transparent "box". Lossy materials like particleboard are actually advantageous in some ways. Just don't use them on the "outside".
-Charlie
There seems to be two sets of camps in the DIY loudspeaker genre:
- Those who come from the engineering side of the equation who can design great sounding speaker but who can't build a physical speaker box that is drop dead gorgeous
- Those who come from the woodworking side of the coin, who have a garage or shop full of tools, a vacuum veneer press, paint booth, etc. at their disposal and who can turn out stunning but often flawed sounding speakers due to their lack of knowledge in the area of crossover design and acoustics.
Anyway, don't forget that a speaker box should not be built from hardwood like fine furniture. Damping of the walls/baffles and adsorption material is critical so that you do not have an acoustically transparent "box". Lossy materials like particleboard are actually advantageous in some ways. Just don't use them on the "outside".
-Charlie
Option 3 - Build something designed by an established DIY designer. I would recommend looking into Jeff bagby's Piccolo, Curt Campbell's Invictus, and Wolf's Demeanors, to name just a few.
What you'll find is that it's more than just "math" It's not a circuit you're making, it's a transducer that will be interacting with the room. It's thus not 2 dimensional.
The other thing you'll find is that yes drivers matter, but it isn't just a matter of picking really good ones and hoping they mesh. A good system design depends on different aspects of the driver selection, - not just how much they cost. Often 1k in drivers will be outperformed by a few hundred simply by virtue of place-of-manufacture (IE SB acoustics is made in indonesia whereas Scanspeak is made in Denmark), driver off-axis response (a 3-way using a 70 dollar 2" mid may work better than a 2-way using a 6.5" midwoofer), and final crossover quality.
I'm not sure what drivers are used in that $1500 damages speaker. It would help if you would let us know.
Likewise, the parts your dealer friend is helping you acquire may not be all that great.
What you'll find is that it's more than just "math" It's not a circuit you're making, it's a transducer that will be interacting with the room. It's thus not 2 dimensional.
The other thing you'll find is that yes drivers matter, but it isn't just a matter of picking really good ones and hoping they mesh. A good system design depends on different aspects of the driver selection, - not just how much they cost. Often 1k in drivers will be outperformed by a few hundred simply by virtue of place-of-manufacture (IE SB acoustics is made in indonesia whereas Scanspeak is made in Denmark), driver off-axis response (a 3-way using a 70 dollar 2" mid may work better than a 2-way using a 6.5" midwoofer), and final crossover quality.
I'm not sure what drivers are used in that $1500 damages speaker. It would help if you would let us know.
Likewise, the parts your dealer friend is helping you acquire may not be all that great.
Good point. The damaged speakers are Dynaudio Excites. I think they are the x sixteens, but could be the x twelves.
Of the camps mentioned above, I fall into the woodworker (hobby), non-engineer camp, but I do math for a living, so I feel like I could learn many aspects of the engineering although I don't know it yet.
Of the camps mentioned above, I fall into the woodworker (hobby), non-engineer camp, but I do math for a living, so I feel like I could learn many aspects of the engineering although I don't know it yet.
hehe I fell into neither camp, but decided to jump in anyway. The end result has thankfully been a success. However be warned that there is a LOT to learn to get to the point where you can pull it off. For me (and this is not indicative) I started to think about the speakers in 2003 and the final finished product was not until around this time last year!
There were some pretty big gaps where there was no activity but there was a lot of time spend reading, simulating prototyping, measuring and building as well (there was about a 4 year period where I did nothing at all).
I went down the measurement and simulation road, but just getting to the point where I could get reliable measurements in itself was hard. I had around 16 years of "experimenting" with different off the shelf crossovers and drivers in my three way speakers before embarking on this project so I knew a lot about how *not* to do things
In my oppinion a few "simple" but crucial points need to be comprehended before success can be achieved.
1. Don't worry about the electrical order of the slopes, it is the accoustic slope that matters, the electrical is the means to the end.
2. Get an understanding of phase and why you want your drivers in phase around crossover. learn how to tweak your crossover to achieve this (time aligned drivers will help a lot here).
3. Understand that baffle geometry and driver placement do have an effect due to diffraction, simulation here helps to find a good compromise.
There are many other aspects as well, but I think the above were probably the main impediments for me until I grasped them.
Tony.
There were some pretty big gaps where there was no activity but there was a lot of time spend reading, simulating prototyping, measuring and building as well (there was about a 4 year period where I did nothing at all).
I went down the measurement and simulation road, but just getting to the point where I could get reliable measurements in itself was hard. I had around 16 years of "experimenting" with different off the shelf crossovers and drivers in my three way speakers before embarking on this project so I knew a lot about how *not* to do things
In my oppinion a few "simple" but crucial points need to be comprehended before success can be achieved.
1. Don't worry about the electrical order of the slopes, it is the accoustic slope that matters, the electrical is the means to the end.
2. Get an understanding of phase and why you want your drivers in phase around crossover. learn how to tweak your crossover to achieve this (time aligned drivers will help a lot here).
3. Understand that baffle geometry and driver placement do have an effect due to diffraction, simulation here helps to find a good compromise.
There are many other aspects as well, but I think the above were probably the main impediments for me until I grasped them.
Tony.
It seems you can easily rebuild the dyns or, 'assemble' the elegant, bookshelf size Intimates. Design and construction details here. The ones I build used pre-fab'd Cherry finish 1/2 cu. ft. cabinets. WAF factor is VERY high.
Introducing the "INTIMATES" (high WAF & quality sound)
Introducing the "INTIMATES" (high WAF & quality sound)
Hi,
I bet he would. Small expensive speakers typically go for about
half new price used in perfect condition, damaged much less.
Dynaudio Excite X12 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Quite nice little speaker if you want a little speaker. I don't know how
the boxes are damaged, but are likely very well built and probably it
would be most effective to refinish them than start from scratch.
The 16's are somewhat bigger :
There are plenty of very well documented and very good designs
available, where all the tricky acoustic design has been done, and
they only need good cabinets.
If you can get good drivers cheap, e.g. Vifa , Scanspeak etc
then you won't be on your own regarding the crossover e.g. :
Zaph|Audio - ZD5 - Scan Speak 15W8530K00 and Vifa XT25
It depends on what sort of speakers you really want.
Checkout :
Humble Homemade Hifi and
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
For the more ambitious approaches to building quality boxes.
rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
A Speaker project
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Software Folder
Add to that the consideration that the rule of thumb for retail speakers sold in bricks & mortar stores, then a $2k speaker has approx $200 worth of drivers in it.
dave
Hi,
For some makes that is probably true, not that you'll
be able to buy them for $200 as spare parts usually.
For around $400 in parts you could build either of these :
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
Parts Express DIY Project
or
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
or bit more :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-sunflowers
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They would retail for serious money, especially if you do a really good
/ nice job on the cabinets, some mechanical engineering skill is needed
to build very performing cabinets, as opposed to just looking nice.
Performance wise miniatures are not in the same ballpark.
rgds, sreten.
Last edited:
Hi,
For some makes that is probably true, not that you'll
be able to buy them for $200 as spare parts usually.
For around $400 in parts you could build either of these :
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
Parts Express DIY Project
or
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
or bit more :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-sunflowers
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They would retail for serious money, especially if you do a really good
/ nice job on the cabinets, some mechanical engineering skill is needed
to build very performing cabinets, as opposed to just looking nice.
Performance wise miniatures are not in the same ballpark.
rgds, sreten.
Your suggestions in post #8 were good ones. Here, it's unlikely those behemoths will fit on the shelf the OP had in mind. :-(
Hi,
Good "bookshelf" speakers invariably sound awful placed on shelves,
they are designed to be placed on stands in open space, and I for
one think floorstanders are a best use of that open floor area.
There are AV speakers and some small hifi speakers specifically
designed to be used near walls, corners and on shelves, most
so called nearfield monitors fit into this category, but they
simply don't sound very good with such placement.
For HiFi IMO there are "standmounters" or "floor standers".
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
I doubt only the drivers (and all the other hardware) is recoverable.
I don't know what the damage is, but if its cosmetic and the baffles
are fine, new boxes seems an overkill, just fix up the well built boxes.
rgds, sreten.
thanks for all the replies and advice. I look forward to reading even more.
I am really amazed at the complexity of the choices and find it almost inconceivable that one could ever make the "right" choice. It is hard enough to figure out the right pair of speakers to buy. When you open up the diy option the options go through the roof.
I like the link to the cool preplanned designs, and I don't mind spending a lot more than $400 on parts, but don't really know how to figure out if i had a $1500 budget, say, what to build since I can't listen to any of these speakers before building them.
My original idea was either large bookshelves (supplemented by a smallish sub) or small floor standers - something with high WAF, but obviously I don't want to spend $1500 on speakers and end up with something that doesn't sound nearly as good as what you'd get from say Paradigm at that price (I currently have some 10 year old Studio 60's that sound pretty good to me, but it would be fun to build something that I made, sounded comparable, and looked better than the generic black boxes.)
Also thanks for the tip about hardwood, i do know that most people say not to use hardwood (although a few on here disagree), but even this seems to be something people can't agree on - a book I bought suggests MDF as the best, others on here claim it is not as good as good as good ply, so even there it seems hard to find an answer without trying lots of options first and I don't want to build 10 pairs to find the one I love (well, I'd love to do it, but with small children, work, etc, I don't have time for lots of failed attempts).
I am really amazed at the complexity of the choices and find it almost inconceivable that one could ever make the "right" choice. It is hard enough to figure out the right pair of speakers to buy. When you open up the diy option the options go through the roof.
I like the link to the cool preplanned designs, and I don't mind spending a lot more than $400 on parts, but don't really know how to figure out if i had a $1500 budget, say, what to build since I can't listen to any of these speakers before building them.
My original idea was either large bookshelves (supplemented by a smallish sub) or small floor standers - something with high WAF, but obviously I don't want to spend $1500 on speakers and end up with something that doesn't sound nearly as good as what you'd get from say Paradigm at that price (I currently have some 10 year old Studio 60's that sound pretty good to me, but it would be fun to build something that I made, sounded comparable, and looked better than the generic black boxes.)
Also thanks for the tip about hardwood, i do know that most people say not to use hardwood (although a few on here disagree), but even this seems to be something people can't agree on - a book I bought suggests MDF as the best, others on here claim it is not as good as good as good ply, so even there it seems hard to find an answer without trying lots of options first and I don't want to build 10 pairs to find the one I love (well, I'd love to do it, but with small children, work, etc, I don't have time for lots of failed attempts).
Small stand mounts with small powered subs do seem to have much greater WAF, and is a reasonable compromise.
As for box materials; there are "Quite" a few threads on the subject. MDF is cheap, chipboard is cheaper. I have had reasonable success with combinations but not with chipboard glued to thin ( 7mm ) softwood ply.
As for box materials; there are "Quite" a few threads on the subject. MDF is cheap, chipboard is cheaper. I have had reasonable success with combinations but not with chipboard glued to thin ( 7mm ) softwood ply.
standmounts
by the way I didn't initially mean to imply that the speakers would be on bookshelves by my use of "bookshelf speakers." I just thought that was the standard name for smaller speakers that don't stand on the floor. If I build small speakers they will be on stands of some form, so I guess I should have used standmounts instead.
by the way I didn't initially mean to imply that the speakers would be on bookshelves by my use of "bookshelf speakers." I just thought that was the standard name for smaller speakers that don't stand on the floor. If I build small speakers they will be on stands of some form, so I guess I should have used standmounts instead.
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