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Old 16th July 2012, 04:00 AM   #11
chops is offline chops  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
I was just suggesting *a* reason why there hasn't been more interest in the thread. I'm not sure garnering responses is about impressing people (though for some it might be), but rather will they find it interesting enough to respond?


However looking at it from a price-point perspective is EXACTLY what Pano and I are suggesting. In other words we don't think the design you have out-lined is going to net you better performance for the price then something like the little Manzanita. *Different* performance, yes. (..and who knows, performance you might find more meaningful.)

Surprisingly that little 3" driver is excellent (measurably) - probably quite a bit better than the Silver IRS - at least at lower spl's. Still, the Manzanita isn't a design that particularly captures my interest either.


As for what might be more interesting?

Perhaps an open baffle line array, or at least open baffle for the mid-bass drivers - crossing over to your N2012 drivers (also open baffle).

Maybe an MTM open baffle, or an MMTMM (or MMMTM)?

Just some ideas, and the Silver Iris isn't a bad idea it's just not a great one with either objective performance or even subjective performance over a broad group of listeners. (..lots of user's like it, but only a few seem to love it. I'm sure Pano has heard it several times from LSAF alone.)

BTW, this isn't meant to be a "downer" though it reads that way, just something to consider before moving forward.

Note: your proposed bass section does sound interesting to me - and a lot more so than an Alpha-based version.
That small Vifa might just be a great little driver, but it's just that, little. It's probably also fairly inefficient. If I am to keep this system completely passive, the considerably more efficient bass drivers will swamp the small drivers. This is also why I haven't put too much thought into using the Alpair 10.2's that I have sitting here.

Likewise, mixing horns with OB bass drivers can also be a bit of a pain for similar reasons, which is why I haven't put too much thought into using them either.

Something I can definitely agree with is the unique bass section I want to attempt. And to improve on it just a little bit more, I was thinking of adding a small, shallow frame on the back of the baffle, maybe 4-6" deep, just for a little added distance from front to rear. Who knows though...



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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I've offered you ideas and comments in years past and you steadfastly refused to consider them. So I don't think I can offer much help this time, either. Have fun, looks like quite a project!
Probably because you veered straight off into a totally different direction, such as in this situation. Sorry, but if it has nothing to do with the matter at hand, I'm not going to pay it much attention.

Seriously, if I'm making plans for a system that's completely fullrange and very efficient, then why suggest something that's not much more than a little bookshelf OB design that's maybe only good down to about 100Hz?!

That makes zero sense to me...
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Old 16th July 2012, 04:33 AM   #12
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by chops View Post
That small Vifa might just be a great little driver, but it's just that, little. It's probably also fairly inefficient. If I am to keep this system completely passive, the considerably more efficient bass drivers will swamp the small drivers. This is also why I haven't put too much thought into using the Alpair 10.2's that I have sitting here.


Something I can definitely agree with is the unique bass section I want to attempt. And to improve on it just a little bit more, I was thinking of adding a small, shallow frame on the back of the baffle, maybe 4-6" deep, just for a little added distance from front to rear. Who knows though...
The vifa driver is little and inefficient.. and also relatively in-expensive. i.e. think in MULTIPLES! Yeah, back to the array idea.

BTW, here it is:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/Vifa-TC9FD18-08-FR.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/Vifa-TC9FD18-08-HD.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/Vifa-TC9FD18-08-CSD.gif

-of course it would also require a line of eff. cheap tweeters as well to reduce combing effects and raise efficiency.


You could also go with a pressure-release cardioid system for the bass drivers (..which are dipole at lower freq.s)

Kimmo has a really nice design for the bass system here:
DIY archive of Kimmo Saunisto
..the KS2125 and the KS-006

Of course his design has lower Qts drivers so you would have more gain in the upper bass/lower mids - which may or may not work well with the low-pass filter. It's the lowpass network/eq. that will be critical - which ever design you end-up with.
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Last edited by ScottG; 16th July 2012 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 16th July 2012, 05:32 AM   #13
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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OP, If you think the Manzanita goes does to 100 Hz only, you need to study the design again.

Also, bass drivers that are much more efficient than mids/highs on an OB is the correct design when going passive.
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Old 16th July 2012, 12:28 PM   #14
chops is offline chops  United States
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As I went and actually read a little about the Manzanita last night, I noticed that it reaches down into the 40Hz. Sorry, my mistake.


And yes, I know more efficient bass drivers are needed, hence my original suggestion of going with the Silver Iris. It's 96dB, the N2012 in pairs, and on similar baffles to the Emerald CS2.3/2.7 should be somewhere around the 100dB range, if not more.
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Old 17th July 2012, 03:28 AM   #15
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Right, the Manzanita is a simple design, but is very full and subjectively has plenty of bass. The "Ultra" version even more so. - bigger woofer, bigger baffle. But neither may be efficient enough for you.

To get efficiency on OB you need a lot of baffle area. Or you have to give up bass. All the Hawthorn designs I've heard gave up bass for efficiency. Their tonal balance is skewed toward the midrange (which some folks like.) Getting 100dB @ 2.83 volts on OB is going to be tough, if you want real bass response. Large baffles and multiple woofer can do it, tho.

I've done the OB 15" woofer and horn design and really liked it, but the crossover is tough to get right.
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Old 17th July 2012, 04:37 AM   #16
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Yes a lot of area to have efficiency. 95dB , 0.85 meter width, a monster
Do OB is very difficult...
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Old 17th July 2012, 04:41 AM   #17
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post

To get efficiency on OB you need a lot of baffle area.


This is another reason for my suggestion of a line array.


*Height* is a component of baffle area (and line arrays as line sources are necessarily tall), even though it doesn't have as much effect on pressure loss as width. It becomes even more important with multiple drivers distributed on the face of the baffle (..in other words the midbass/midrange drivers distributed along the baffle will benefit even more at the bottom of their passband).

So,

-you can sacrifice some baffle width by increasing baffle height.
(say, 18 inches wide by 72 inches high.)


ANOTHER reason arguing for a line array format (with a necessarily tall baffle) is the potential to utilizing combing effects to an advantage - by reducing spl at those "boosted" higher freq.s via extreme driver separation.

More specifically:

-have one 15" bass driver on top of the array and one on the bottom of the array (..with mids and tweets between them).
(i.e. WmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmW. ..vertically of course)

This can effectively "cut" the rising response (of those woofers) and dramatically improve the integration when only using a 1st order electrical at lower freq.s to both eq. the pressure loss AND act as a low pass filter for integration with the mid-range.
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Last edited by ScottG; 17th July 2012 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 17th July 2012, 11:58 AM   #18
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Hello

I've had the Iris's too and although they are a rather great little unit by themselves...Darrel did a good job...two things made them better for me...swapping out the tweeter to a B&C DE10 and using an active xover via DCX2496 or miniDSP...

I think if you have stuff around...start playing actively...game changer for me...

Just my two cents worth
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Old 17th July 2012, 12:52 PM   #19
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
This can effectively "cut" the rising response (of those woofers) and dramatically improve the integration when only using a 1st order electrical at lower freq.s to both eq. the pressure loss AND act as a low pass filter for integration with the mid-range.
Hmmm..... this is a new and interesting concept to me. Will have to play around with this to see how it works. Chops, didn't you used to have a system like this?
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Old 17th July 2012, 08:00 PM   #20
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Hmmm..... this is a new and interesting concept to me. Will have to play around with this to see how it works. Chops, didn't you used to have a system like this?
I should note that changing the vertical angle of the drivers helps with canceling-out some of the higher "interverals" (where pressure starts getting closer to the average again).

(..i.e. bottom woofer tilted slightly toward the floor and top woofer tilted slightly toward the ceiling.)

This can be done fairly easily by using a "baffle" on the baffle where the "baffle" connected to the driver (woofer) acts like a "shim" and tilts the driver vertically (when compared to the real baffle - assuming it's 90 degrees (vertical) from the floor).

The added "thickness" of the baffle+baffle for the woofers also helps with aligning acoustic center (..a bit better), by moving the woofers closer to the listener when compared to the mid/tweeter lines.
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Last edited by ScottG; 17th July 2012 at 08:18 PM.
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