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Old 13th July 2012, 08:57 AM   #1
ryzaa is offline ryzaa  Australia
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Default Ideas for Avant Garde Trio Inspired Speaker

Afternoon,

I posted a little bit about this in my intro thread [about a year late] from the other day.

Purpose
The purpose of this thread is to try and decide what drivers to use to create a three way front loaded horn, that is similar or as close as possible to the Avant Garde Trios.
I would like to keep cost below AU$2000, purely for drivers, it will be spread out over a long period of time no doubt, as this will not be a quick and easy project by any means.

What I know so far
So far what I know is that they use a very rigid 8 inch cone midrange for 100-600hz, outer diameter of the horn is 950mm, 650mm long.
a 2 inch compression driver for 600hz-4khz, 570mm diameter, 430mm long
and a 1 inch compression driver for 4khz+ in a horn that has a diameter of 180mm and has a length of 85mm.

All of their crossovers are very basic, as they choose drivers with natural rolloff, at the crossover frequencies, and then the horns and compression chambers are also made to filter at those frequencies aswell.

All of the horns are designed as spherical horns [I am guessing that they have a constant radius?] and have 180 degree dispersion.

Other info
I will be making all of the horns myself from fibreglass moulds. I currently have about 70sqm of 450gsm fibreglass matting and 40kg of resin as well. I also have a large number of MDF cut outs from various projects, that will start the basis of my moulds.

I also already own a large number of drivers, I dont think any of them will be useful however, they include a large number of soft dome 1 inch tweeters, various 3 and 4 inch midranges, a number of 6-7 inch midranges, some 8s, 10s, etc. However I dont believe specs on any of these drivers suit front horn design and most of them are set aside for other projects.

I will be running this all active, using a minidsp and 4 2 x 135wrms kit amps

What I need to work out
What I need help deciding, and working out is what drivers to use, and exactly how I am going to design the horns, my horn theory is okay, however I am not that good at designing horns, and hornresp confuses me greatly still.

Any ideas, with clear reasoning as to what I should do and why will be appreciated.
If I can get together something that looks like it will work, I shall no doubt turn this into a kind of build log for it all as well.

Thanks,
Ryan

Last edited by ryzaa; 18th October 2012 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Changed title to reflect change in direction
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Old 13th July 2012, 09:26 AM   #2
3GGG is offline 3GGG  Australia
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there are several 3 or 4 way front loaded horn builds on the go on here and stereo.net.
Read up on B&C 8 inch or Fane 8m, B&C compression drivers, Radian compression drivers and look into vintage Yamaha and JBL drivers.
I researche for 12 months before purchasing anything and settling on a design based on what was available.
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Old 13th July 2012, 09:37 AM   #3
ryzaa is offline ryzaa  Australia
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Fane Studio 8ms are no longer available, what they have to replace it, doesnt look like it will be all that good.

The several threads on SNA use either rather expensive , not easy to come by esoteric speakers [Lansche plasma tweeter and mid], or drivers that are no longer available. [Fane Studio 8m]

I would prefer to use drivers that are currently available, rather then Vintage drivers, with no warrranty, etc
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Old 13th July 2012, 10:34 AM   #4
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looking at the budget I recommend Faital pro or Selenium compression drivers

what is the final efficiency you're looking for?
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Old 13th July 2012, 01:31 PM   #5
ryzaa is offline ryzaa  Australia
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Im not really fussed about efficiency, I mainly just want to experiment with front loaded horns using drivers of fairly reasonable quality. I prefer lower distortion, etc, over efficiency.
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Old 13th July 2012, 03:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryzaa View Post
Im not really fussed about efficiency, I mainly just want to experiment with front loaded horns using drivers of fairly reasonable quality. I prefer lower distortion, etc, over efficiency.
Horn produce low distortion and have high efficiency basically (not always)
I'm anxious to see how will you build horns? round horns or rectangle horns?
I'll suggest you to use Tractrix horn calculator which will give you good perspective of some direction in CAD... I attached it you can take a look. it calculate both round and rectangle horns according to Driver TS or cutoff frequency

you can reach to 104 up to 110db of efficiency. it depend weather your low frequency driver will be bi-amp and active you not, because woofers are not as efficient as compression units and horn tweeter
Selenium D405 is a good and economical 2" midrange driver. Selenium D220Ti is also a good HF CD will work fine as a tweeter

you may also want to use horn bass-bin to increase efficiency with lower distortion. there are some good horn bass bins available. one of the best would be Khorn. La scala is another option. I don't kow much about front-loaded basshorns but La Scala and Klipschorn bassbins was used in some rond horn projects (I think I saw some in Bd-Design website)
Attached Files
File Type: zip Tractrix_v1.4b.zip (372.4 KB, 63 views)
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Old 14th July 2012, 12:42 AM   #7
ryzaa is offline ryzaa  Australia
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Ideally I would like to build round horns from moulds using fibreglass.
I have access to a lathe, from which I should be able to make the moulds from, then hopefully build the horns from that.

Just had a quick look at the Tractrix horn calculator, that looks like that will be much easier to calculate exactly how wide the horns should be for a given length, thanks for that.

Efficiency anywhere above 100db would be more then enough for me, as I said, it is just something to play around with and see how I go.

As for bass bins for the low end, I was planning on building some, I have 12 10 inch subs sitting around doing nothing, but I dont think they will suit horn loading that well, so if I decide to go that path, Dayton Audio do some affordable 15 inch PA style subs that look like they could work really well.
I also have access to a metal roller, so I could get a look/finish similar in style to the Avant Garde Basshorns if I like.

When I have time, I will have a look at those drivers to see how they look on paper, thanks for your tips/suggestions.

Ryan
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Old 14th July 2012, 01:02 AM   #8
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Before you embark on this project have you heard the Avant Garde Trio or the Duo and are sure this is the sound you are looking for before you spend a lot of time and effort, not to mention money replicating it? I will say they look cool, beyond that well...

Just curious..
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Old 14th July 2012, 01:03 AM   #9
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Old 14th July 2012, 01:22 AM   #10
ryzaa is offline ryzaa  Australia
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Hi Kevin,

I have not heard it, seen pictures of it, analysed the design of it, read reviews on it, but other then that, nothing.

I have a large number of drivers, all for different things, basically so I can try and create, or replicate designs of some fairly good speakers, covering full range systems, Designs using Transmission Lines, Line Arrays, wave guides, horns, basically any 'type' I can recreate myself, to get a feel for the design of them, to hear, measure, observe the different characteristics of them and just to have fun and experiment. Visually this one caught my attention, and hopefully sonically I can create something that I also enjoy

Ryan
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