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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 20th December 2012, 09:13 AM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Screamer View Post
Robert has already given me a few clues on how to use the MultiWin, and I have experimented with varying degrees of success. You mention that you leave the first line at the far left (0ms) and move the second red line to the floor bounce (start of first bump). I was under the impression that you put the first red line at the point of floor bounce and the second and third red lines to the right of that. I might give what you’re doing a go and see how that goes.

I have been giving it some thought as to how to measure, and really are we just kidding ourselves if we measure to get optimal results when we would get a different result from our listening position. Which has led me to think perhaps the truest way of measuring the speakers is to place the mic at ear height in the seated position, as that is where your ears are going to be placed while listening to the speakers. Should we really be adjusting the speakers to get the best results there?
Hi again - timezone is different up here - slowly waking up, sipping my first cup of coffee
As i understand it. The first and last line indicates the outer borders. So for now, leave them "out" there
The second red line should be placed right before the first floor bounce. It works here. There are still ripples at the measurement, when gating correct. These might be from your front baffel or driver design.
If you measure from your listening seat. You are including the room to much and therefore making the sweetspot very small.
Measuring a speaker, is about making the speaker working its best, in its enclosure - without the room affecting.
Hope it helps a little
Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg To soon.jpg (113.9 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg To late.jpg (116.8 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg Getting close.jpg (112.2 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by Tordenguden; 20th December 2012 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 20th December 2012, 09:32 AM   #362
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Hmmm... tried to make links for pictures. Did not work. Then I found out that I could upload pictures directly. And know I cant remove the links again.
Pic 1: To much gating = low frequency missing
Pic 2: To little gating = some room reflections included
Pic 3: Getting close. Some disturbance might come from baffel and driver design.
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Old 20th December 2012, 10:08 AM   #363
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The Help file in the software is basically useless and out of date (wrong version), and well under written, but what I saw in the DuoWin section lined up with what I understood Robert to say.

Still learning how to use it properly, but I put the first line at the bump, the second line I use to control the top frequencies and the third line to control the bottom frequencies.

I make the window only as big as I need it and no bigger to make it more precise. As I say I still have lots to learn and may be doing it completely wrong.
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Old 20th December 2012, 10:45 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studiotech View Post
Well IF you are doing all of this manually, yes. BUT if I am understanding you correctly, the Ground Sound DSP is auto-magically performing all of the xover and EQ corrections to achieve the target functions, yes?

What does Ground Sound recommend?
Greg
NO - not auto automatic - the user still has to steer the software – no one button setup solution.

The optimizer can calculate PEQ to optimize the frequency response according to the parameters than the user has full control of and afterwards the use can sort them out or alter the result or delete some of the PEQs and even recalculate some of the result or from scratch. This tool require the skills of the user of how to and it give the user opportunity to make a top notch result – full flexibility at all time.

Well – although the software is a powerful tool, it requires correctly “analysed” data and before you get correct analysed data you have to have correct measurements. This has been a challenge this far!

We have been struggling with the hardware and connections – I assume that Paul has solved the issues according to my instructions? Especially not having phantom power from input 2 to output 2 in the reference signal path - TRS-XLR cable replaced by TRS-TRS cable I hope! I have encouraged Paul to send me some measurements after the right implementation of the hardware, so that I could help him getting the gating correct and sort out if the measurements now are near normal standard – nothing yet.

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Old 20th December 2012, 10:48 AM   #365
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well, I might try the Duowin, to see if I can get anything usefull out of it.
Did you try my suggestion?
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Old 20th December 2012, 10:49 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Screamer View Post
The Help file in the software is basically useless and out of date (wrong version), and well under written, but what I saw in the DuoWin section lined up with what I understood Robert to say.

Still learning how to use it properly, but I put the first line at the bump, the second line I use to control the top frequencies and the third line to control the bottom frequencies.

I make the window only as big as I need it and no bigger to make it more precise. As I say I still have lots to learn and may be doing it completely wrong.
Yes - I am working on a manual for the software - will take some time though.

Paul – you can do it like Tordenguden show it. Even better is to use the ETC visualization (button in the toolbar next to PIR) then you will see something like the attached picture.
The first red line should be placed where the signal rises above the noise floor and the second red line at the first reflection. This will give you the frequency response of the driver without room.
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File Type: jpg MultiWin_ETC.jpg (204.6 KB, 26 views)
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Old 20th December 2012, 11:06 PM   #367
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Hi Tordenguden I did try it your way, but I felt I had better control over both ends (low and high) the way I was doing it. I don’t know what the difference is between the MultiWin and the DuoWin as I am trying to curb my natural curiosity and not try learn too many things at once. There is an incredible amount of functionality in the software and I don’t want to skip ahead too soon and miss something vital. But if I was to hazard a guess I would say that MutliWin, AmbiWin & DuoWin would be all somehow inter connected. Guess we need to wait for Robert’s useful version of the Help to find out what each of these things do.

I probably should point out for anyone not familiar with the software, the Help file that comes with the software is from a 3rd party manufacturer and is less than optimal. Robert has been kind enough to try bridge the knowledge gap / write clearer instructions for people like myself who are not experts in setting up and using the software. To a large degree the software manufacturer makes an awful lot of assumptions that you have knowledge of just about everything. People like myself who have never plugged in a microphone, or seen an external sound card before are left floundering without the incredible assistance of people like Robert, I can’t praise Ground Sound’s customer service enough.

Hi Robert, unfortunately no I still don’t have the cables sorted. I am still waiting on that new TRS Y piece to turn up from the US. I can see it was posted on the 8th of December, but once it leaves the US there is no tracking on it. I hope it turns up soon, as I am eager to have the cabling problem sorted properly once and for all.

I have the feeling it probably won’t be long enough anyway, and I might need to order some additional cables, as I ordered it before you explained why I needed the TRS-TRS (no 48v phantom) it was just luck that I guessed the right one to order, but going off the picture it doesn’t look long enough to loop from the front to the back, which means I may need a TRS female to TRS male extension.

I have also been practicing a bit more with the Roland 55 AU to get the SNR up. What I found was while I had high readings on the tweeters by the time I got down to the mid woofers and woofers it had fallen below an acceptable level, so I believe I now have it tuned in a way where I have good solid green readings on all of the drivers, which showed immediate improvement in the flatness of the captured response, especially in the lower frequencies. I am now also using the ASIO mode like you suggested.

I had a quick go at what you described and I think I have it right… From your picture I can’t see what button you have pressed down the bottom to get your third line. Are you using the same version of software as me?
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Old 21st December 2012, 07:35 AM   #368
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I'm using version 1.17
Still looks weird - but I think it will clear up, when you get the rigth cable. SNR will allways be worse, the lower the frequency - it's the reflections and long wavelengths again
Why did you buy in the US? Don't you have music-gear-shops down there? It's just a 1/4" jack to jack cable, at about ½ meter. Should be extremely common in the music business.
Could you post pictures of the soundcard with cables and the buttons. Then it will be easier to figure out, if we are doing the same thing
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Old 21st December 2012, 07:42 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Screamer View Post
Are you using the same version of software as me?
I think it depends upon OS Windows XP here and Windows 7 on your laptop?

Tip of the day is:
If you already know that the tweeter has much higher sensitivity than the rest of the drivers - say 8dB - then I recommend you to use the option of the DCN28 to attenuate the output of those two single channels (tweeter stereo). This is done via the encoder on the front panel menu (push 7 times) displays "Ch. Att." and turn to the tweeter channel (EG Ch1 & 5) push and attenuate to -8dB. Now you will be able to obtain better Signal Noise Ratio in the measurements of the other drivers without stressing the tweeter.

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Old 21st December 2012, 11:18 AM   #370
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Ok the themes or styles in Windows XP would explain why your buttons look different when highlighted. Yes I am running Windows 7 on my laptop. Would I be correct in assuming that the buttons you have selected are the AmbiWin, DuoWin and Normalise?

There isn’t a great deal of efficiency difference between the drivers. The dipole tweeter is around 93dB at the front and slightly less at the rear. The 12MU8731T00 are 87.2dB wired in parallel which should give me around 93dB, and the 18WU4741T00 are 87.2dB wired in series - parallel (not exactly sure what that give me).

Is the attenuation through the DCN28 the same as the attenuation that is set through the software for each driver? i.e. do they do the exact same thing?

Tordenguden see pics for wiring. Instead of just replacing the loopback cable for another one, the Help says it is more accurate to use a Y adaptor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG1184-1.jpg (185.5 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg Stimulus.jpg (79.7 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg TRS female to 2 TRS male.jpg (24.2 KB, 19 views)
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