I totally agree system7, DCR of coils can be good or bad, it depends. In higher orders it could be argued that series coil resistance is important, eg 2 coils 0.5 ohm each. In other instances shunt coil DCR is important to be kept low. Works either way. On the other hand i do believe ferrites operate well, by using high current types. Ive used a murata 2.2 with success, but any more in series and its hopeless. With the higher rating 2mm wire, theres not a chance of saturating on my 30watts. but generally i do go for air core anyway. Hysteresis is still there after all.
Guys why do we have to turn this into another " your stupid if you buy X "
Everyone has a valid point , their experiences are just that , why not use this discussion as an opportunity to see what others have tried and why, then make your decision , spend your monies. If someone spent big $$ on a cap, i would like to know why, OK , I'm too cheap to buy it and agree it could be spent elsewhere , regardless, info accepted and appreciated ...
Everyone has a valid point , their experiences are just that , why not use this discussion as an opportunity to see what others have tried and why, then make your decision , spend your monies. If someone spent big $$ on a cap, i would like to know why, OK , I'm too cheap to buy it
and agree it could be spent elsewhere , regardless, info accepted and appreciated ... 
Please
WHO LET THE DOGS OUT? HOO! HOO!
[Yo DavidL: Quit sending me nasty PMs...I don't want to be your pen pal.]
Lately I have been using Russian KBG paper/foil capacitors. Very distinct and superior sound from Solens and PET caps which I also tried, in particular less grainy and a bit more subjective heft to the LF.
Current experimental system is compression drivers and B&C 12" coax woofer section, although I'm trying several different woofers in this configuration.
Price is right on ebay for such nicely made mil surplus 200V caps, so even for cheapskate skeptics entirely unconvinced about audibility of caps, these are still worth a look. Lots of 6uf and 2uf @200V listed now.
I request that the moderators warn the one disruptive poster here. Everyone else has been willing to share their experiences and opinions, and, so far, this one person has made only snide remarks, contributing NOTHING other than sarcasm. Why are so many threads allowed to be destroyed this way? What is to be gained by disrespectfully telling people who already know it and state clearly that their opinions are merely subjective, that their opinions are not suitable for sharing in a thread ABOUT OPINIONS?
Will the moderators please control this disruptful, disrespectful, unproductive behavior? Why do you wait until exchanges become so heated and personal that the thread must be closed? Why do you allow this to happen? I'm really getting tired of seeing threads ruined by the smug attitude that nobody's opinion is worth anything unless they've subjected themselves to rigorous scientific procedures. I WANT TO HEAR other people's opinions. I don't need to believe them, and I don't need them to prove anything. What I don't want to hear is more: "Shut up, fool, because you haven't proven anything and I'm smarter than you are."
Respectfully,
Tom E
Will the moderators please control this disruptful, disrespectful, unproductive behavior? Why do you wait until exchanges become so heated and personal that the thread must be closed? Why do you allow this to happen? I'm really getting tired of seeing threads ruined by the smug attitude that nobody's opinion is worth anything unless they've subjected themselves to rigorous scientific procedures. I WANT TO HEAR other people's opinions. I don't need to believe them, and I don't need them to prove anything. What I don't want to hear is more: "Shut up, fool, because you haven't proven anything and I'm smarter than you are."
Respectfully,
Tom E
That's the problem Tom, people throw opinions around based solely on their personal subjective experience, an experience that is far more likely to be swayed by a subjective bias then it is by the component itself.
I strongly dislike the boutique components because they lure the unsuspecting towards the possibility of spending far more then they should on things that will have only a tiny chance, if any at all, on improving the sound.
Changing from one good quality polyprop cap to another good quality (but far more expensive) poly prop cap, which has no measurable effect is unlikely to affect the sound in any way, yet people rave about them. The manufactures are also in on it too, they know the subjectivists like large film caps, so what do they sometimes do? Put the real cap inside a larger can to make it look more impressive.
To put this into perspective I shall quote from a recent review I read in a hifi magazine on 'vibrational distortion reducing phono plug inserts'.
"So what's happening here? How does it remove the distortion? According to Mr. X of said company 'I can't tell you'."
This wasn't written from the point of view of hiding intellectual property, it was written from the point of view that Mr.X of the company couldn't actually give them a good technical reason for it, so he then made up some mumbo jumbo to explain it, which I will refrain from boring you with. The reviewer then proceeded to write the usual rubbish about how veils had been lifted etc.
Now in no circumstances does adding in extra connectors actually improve the sound quality, yet here we have basically just that, claiming to do just that and boom the subjectivist waxes lyrical about it.
Now do you want to buy components based off of subjective reviews? I certainly don't.
David mentioned that subjective opinions are basically trolling and I know exactly where he is coming from, a subjective comment is only valid for the person who made that comment. I absolutely hate it when a thread appears about caps/components whatever and its filled with subjective opinions and it becomes apparent that the original poster starts thinking that those 'opinions' are worth more then the sensible, logical, engineering side of things, the side that designs equipment that keeps people alive and the side that allows us to put a space station into orbit with people living on it.
I strongly dislike the boutique components because they lure the unsuspecting towards the possibility of spending far more then they should on things that will have only a tiny chance, if any at all, on improving the sound.
Changing from one good quality polyprop cap to another good quality (but far more expensive) poly prop cap, which has no measurable effect is unlikely to affect the sound in any way, yet people rave about them. The manufactures are also in on it too, they know the subjectivists like large film caps, so what do they sometimes do? Put the real cap inside a larger can to make it look more impressive.
To put this into perspective I shall quote from a recent review I read in a hifi magazine on 'vibrational distortion reducing phono plug inserts'.
"So what's happening here? How does it remove the distortion? According to Mr. X of said company 'I can't tell you'."
This wasn't written from the point of view of hiding intellectual property, it was written from the point of view that Mr.X of the company couldn't actually give them a good technical reason for it, so he then made up some mumbo jumbo to explain it, which I will refrain from boring you with. The reviewer then proceeded to write the usual rubbish about how veils had been lifted etc.
Now in no circumstances does adding in extra connectors actually improve the sound quality, yet here we have basically just that, claiming to do just that and boom the subjectivist waxes lyrical about it.
Now do you want to buy components based off of subjective reviews? I certainly don't.
David mentioned that subjective opinions are basically trolling and I know exactly where he is coming from, a subjective comment is only valid for the person who made that comment. I absolutely hate it when a thread appears about caps/components whatever and its filled with subjective opinions and it becomes apparent that the original poster starts thinking that those 'opinions' are worth more then the sensible, logical, engineering side of things, the side that designs equipment that keeps people alive and the side that allows us to put a space station into orbit with people living on it.
There's an old adage: "I'll throw a bunch of **it against the wall and see how much of it sticks"
IMO, that's what noobies do when they ask questions like the OP did. They are basically doing a survey to see how many responders render an opinion about the same cap (or whatever audio product is being asked about) and then feel that cap must be good if such and such a number of posters liked it..,...
and the beat goes on.....
IMO, that's what noobies do when they ask questions like the OP did. They are basically doing a survey to see how many responders render an opinion about the same cap (or whatever audio product is being asked about) and then feel that cap must be good if such and such a number of posters liked it..,...
and the beat goes on.....
While subjective bias it's a real risk you can't state that all listening opinions are affected.
Often sketptics affirm that expectactions from a costly component (or fancy colored, etc.) lead the listener to be biased.
Well I can say for sure that it's not the case since I've been dissapointed many times from costly components and preferred cheaper ones.
And before you say it, I'm not biased in choosing cheaper components, some boutique parts sound really better than industrial ones (Mundorf MLGO, Amtrans AMCH, etc.).
Often different metallized polypropilene caps have different measures...
Mundorf Supreme (tan(delta) = 0,0002 at 1kHz. 0,0001 at 10kHz)
Vishay V-730P (DF =0.1% max at 1kHz)
And by the way different construcion techniques and materials quality can lead to different performance.
This would be a fraud and, if you can't prove it, you're libelling those manifacturers...
Again... you're stating that all people that express an opinion on a component sound are convinced that a better sounding component is more important than well designed circuit and/or PCB...
This is not the case...
The performance come from the circuit (and PCB) design but component selection shouldn't be overlooked.
A poor component selection can impair a design performance and a very good one can exalt it.
Noobie .....
and you know this how ..? I guess nothing constructive to add bushdoctor ....... In case it flew over your head, selecting caps is usually subjective, there is no sound good measurement, choices are by what designers decide fits their sonic taste, get it , subjective.
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No one in this thread has said that any capacitor improves the sound or reduces distortion. Some have said one cap sounds better than another, not that it's more accurate, or bigger, or heavier, or prettier. You don't have to agree, but you should accept it.
We are not saving lives or going into space; we are listening to music. What a cap does in an exotic machine's complicated circuitry might be different from what it does to a bunch of jumbled sine waves before they pass to a simple motorized transducer. Any good engineer probably cannot accept that, but a wise engineer could.
There is a polite way to disagree with someone, and possibly even educate them that what they believe is misguided. There is no decent way to tell someone their opinion is worthless. All of us are interested in one thing: getting good sound. If some wish to pursue that goal through measurements and scientific testing, no one here is trying to convince them with insults and sarcasm that their method is pointless, their efforts wasted, their conclusions false.
We all recognize the advances that come from superior engineering and careful execution of concept. We should also recognize that Edison created and perfected most of his inventions by trying almost every reasonable alternative, and some unreasonable ones, to make them work.
Some prefer to pursue their goals through comparative personal experience, and then share their impressions. Why is it necessary to discredit their opinions? Perhaps they don't have access to sophisticated testing equipment or the technical skills to make proper use of it. Is that a reason to give up trying? Does it automatically make every judgment invalid? One will surely have good and bad candidates in the trial population, for any number of reasons (size, cost, color, some idiot's opinion), but eventually the experimenter will make a selection appropriate for himself. What is lost? What is gained? Why is it so important to you?
We can all find ridiculous claims and statements in the audio press, and that proves nothing. I quit reading that crap years ago. I can't argue that there isn't plenty of elaborate, expensive BS in the range of audio products, and there are many easy targets for the shills and phonies. I don't think anyone can argue any better that some people don't hear stuff differently than others, and some things sound better to them. Please, please, please let the listeners tell us about them. We can try it and decide for ourselves. We don't need guardianship or engineering expertise. You may possess knowledge far in advance of anyone else posting here, but what do you HEAR?
This thread is about what caps you use, not what scientific method you used to determine which cap is the best. Tell us what caps you use, perhaps why you use them compared to others (I really hope you have at least tried others. If not, you are more ignorant than the suckers who buy the biggest or most colorful.). If one reason is sonics, let us know. If the reason is technical or better measurements, no one will deny that's also important. Perhaps moreso, perhaps not. We don't want lectures on proper testing or engineering principles. And we don't want to be dismissed as children easily separated from our money by ruthless hucksters selling magic beans. I have to believe that most of the guys who sell caps, boutique or otherwise, do so because they think, for some reason, their product is better than others.
It's good to be skeptical; it's not very productive to be cynical. Maybe I am the biggest sucker, but I sure like the way some caps sound. Some others, not so much. If I tell someone else about it, what's the harm? If some poor sap puts faith in my opinion and buys something I recommend, has he lost anything or has he gained experience? So far, I must say, he'll be pretty happy that at least he gave it a try.
Peace,
Tom E
We are not saving lives or going into space; we are listening to music. What a cap does in an exotic machine's complicated circuitry might be different from what it does to a bunch of jumbled sine waves before they pass to a simple motorized transducer. Any good engineer probably cannot accept that, but a wise engineer could.
There is a polite way to disagree with someone, and possibly even educate them that what they believe is misguided. There is no decent way to tell someone their opinion is worthless. All of us are interested in one thing: getting good sound. If some wish to pursue that goal through measurements and scientific testing, no one here is trying to convince them with insults and sarcasm that their method is pointless, their efforts wasted, their conclusions false.
We all recognize the advances that come from superior engineering and careful execution of concept. We should also recognize that Edison created and perfected most of his inventions by trying almost every reasonable alternative, and some unreasonable ones, to make them work.
Some prefer to pursue their goals through comparative personal experience, and then share their impressions. Why is it necessary to discredit their opinions? Perhaps they don't have access to sophisticated testing equipment or the technical skills to make proper use of it. Is that a reason to give up trying? Does it automatically make every judgment invalid? One will surely have good and bad candidates in the trial population, for any number of reasons (size, cost, color, some idiot's opinion), but eventually the experimenter will make a selection appropriate for himself. What is lost? What is gained? Why is it so important to you?
We can all find ridiculous claims and statements in the audio press, and that proves nothing. I quit reading that crap years ago. I can't argue that there isn't plenty of elaborate, expensive BS in the range of audio products, and there are many easy targets for the shills and phonies. I don't think anyone can argue any better that some people don't hear stuff differently than others, and some things sound better to them. Please, please, please let the listeners tell us about them. We can try it and decide for ourselves. We don't need guardianship or engineering expertise. You may possess knowledge far in advance of anyone else posting here, but what do you HEAR?
This thread is about what caps you use, not what scientific method you used to determine which cap is the best. Tell us what caps you use, perhaps why you use them compared to others (I really hope you have at least tried others. If not, you are more ignorant than the suckers who buy the biggest or most colorful.). If one reason is sonics, let us know. If the reason is technical or better measurements, no one will deny that's also important. Perhaps moreso, perhaps not. We don't want lectures on proper testing or engineering principles. And we don't want to be dismissed as children easily separated from our money by ruthless hucksters selling magic beans. I have to believe that most of the guys who sell caps, boutique or otherwise, do so because they think, for some reason, their product is better than others.
It's good to be skeptical; it's not very productive to be cynical. Maybe I am the biggest sucker, but I sure like the way some caps sound. Some others, not so much. If I tell someone else about it, what's the harm? If some poor sap puts faith in my opinion and buys something I recommend, has he lost anything or has he gained experience? So far, I must say, he'll be pretty happy that at least he gave it a try.
Peace,
Tom E
I use MIT PPFXS With RTX bypasses, both fim and foil, expensive and large to build crossovers out of, but far more resolving and detailed than the Solens they replaced in the Martin Logan CLX. I don't think Martin Logan should be using $30 worth of caps in a $25k pair of speakers, not because the Solen caps are cheap, but because they sound compressed, grainy, and unresolving compared to the film and foils.
There are some here who question better caps, it's like eating a $50 steak - if you appreciate it and can afford it then great, A $18 steak at the keg will keep other's happy, a $8 Sirloin on the BBQ at home suits others - all are steaks and all can be equally satisfying to the diner, but don't knock a great steakhouse just because it's expensive.
If you can't hear the difference between metalised film and good film and foil capacitors then possibly your better off spending the funds on Qtips's instead
There are some here who question better caps, it's like eating a $50 steak - if you appreciate it and can afford it then great, A $18 steak at the keg will keep other's happy, a $8 Sirloin on the BBQ at home suits others - all are steaks and all can be equally satisfying to the diner, but don't knock a great steakhouse just because it's expensive.
If you can't hear the difference between metalised film and good film and foil capacitors then possibly your better off spending the funds on Qtips's instead
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Hey 5th Element,
It just dawned on me that I was involved in a thread earlier today, arguing much of what you argue about boutique parts and I did so without reference to this specious concept of objectivity. Indeed, if forced into that dichotomy, which I reject, one would have to conclude that I come down on the subjectivist side.
See here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/215126-wtb-4-x-100kohm-2watts-shinkoh-resistors.html
I edited and published that Ongaku article, so I have a bit of insight into the mythology it produced.
Just putting this forward to argue that self-declared objectivists do not have a monopoly on sensible component selection!
Why am I doing this so often? GOOD question!! Trying to be helpful I guess...
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