Well without knowing the application how are we to make an informed decision? Having said that though it seems you are aware of the technical limitations and advantages of each, so providing the application fits both, all it really boils down to is if you want to use a ribbon or not.
Some people prefer them, some people don't, at some point you're just going to have to try one for yourself and see if you're one of them.
Some people prefer them, some people don't, at some point you're just going to have to try one for yourself and see if you're one of them.
I have just received a pair of neo3.5h ribbons. Eagerly i unpacked them and hooked them up using a 12ohm resistor to attenuate them sufficiently, and used the HP filter from the dome i had in the box, the design is in my sig. The filter is 2nd order so hardly optimal for the ribbon.
The frequency response of both tweeters is similar although i will check this in boxsim to be sure. The dome resonance is more obvious to me now, otherwise the two tweets are quite close. There is something about the ribbon.
Listening, left me with a dilemma. Which tweeter do i use?
The frequency response of both tweeters is similar although i will check this in boxsim to be sure. The dome resonance is more obvious to me now, otherwise the two tweets are quite close. There is something about the ribbon.
Listening, left me with a dilemma. Which tweeter do i use?
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haha yes, 5th I agree.
Just ran the sims and woah! Ill have to build the 4th order I planned in order to get it close to the G20sc and compare them on equal terms. Strangely perhaps, the audible change wasnt as extreme as the plot sim revealed.
There is something I like about the Ribbons which I cant put my finger on. Maybe its the slight horn loading?
Hopefully it isnt THD
Just ran the sims and woah! Ill have to build the 4th order I planned in order to get it close to the G20sc and compare them on equal terms. Strangely perhaps, the audible change wasnt as extreme as the plot sim revealed.
There is something I like about the Ribbons which I cant put my finger on. Maybe its the slight horn loading?
Hopefully it isnt THD
Could be...
You've been reading Zaph's site too much...
Could be....
He does generally loathe ribbons doesnt he? I had never heard one before today, not knowingly at least.
I dont know. Theres some kind of 'ease' with which they produce sound, with 10 Ohm plus to pad them down, they just sound like theyre working alot lot less, in comparison to the domes.
Maybe that IS the horn loading. Even with a asqewed up /screwed up 2nd order(!!!) HP the lower ranges sound different. But nice, the domes sound a bit brash, even though I they should be very flat (in room different i grant thee).
Once I have a break from listening for a day or so, Ill get a reasonable crossover done, rather than an eager botch up!
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Well I bought these NeoCD3.5H for ~40 euro each, worked out exactly the same near enough, in £'sss including the delivery to the UK.
I wanted to try the Mivoc magnetstat or the Visaton MHT12 (too much £££), but this was (i think, and will probably run off to check) the cheapest option, and the FR is good so....I rolls the dice.
He seems to yes. I'm sure you've seen the non dome shootout on Zaph's site where he rips into them. To be fair, a couple of those cheaper ribbons aren't that good, and not all ribbons are created equal, however the better ones really aren't as bad as he makes out.
Basically he's saying they have higher distortion than a good dome tweeter which is generally true, the problem I have is with his statement that anybody that prefers the sound of a ribbon must prefer it because the distortion is higher...
Distortion of a good ribbon is still well below the threshold of audibility unless you're overdriving them or crossing them over too low. A lot of his testing was at 2Khz, which is frankly far too low for any small format ribbon, so comparing them at that frequency is a bit pointless, a bit like comparing the distortion of different midrange drivers at 100Hz!
Ribbons generally need a higher crossover frequency than domes, that's part of the tradeoff, so they're often not a drop in replacement for a dome design.
Yep I know exactly what you mean by them sounding relaxed and "at ease". I have a pair of Aurum Cantus G2 and the same characteristic is apparent.I had never heard one before today, not knowingly at least.
I dont know. Theres some kind of 'ease' with which they produce sound, with 10 Ohm plus to pad them down, they just sound like theyre working alot lot less, in comparison to the domes.
I think the main differences between a ribbon and a dome boil down to two things - almost complete absence of cone breakup, and directivity control. (In the case of a waveguide ribbon)
On my G2 the only resonances it has is a minor one at the fundamental resonance around 1.3Khz, and a slight cavity resonance at 15Khz from the padded cavity behind the ribbon, (which I correct with a 1dB notch) other than that the waterfall plot is free of resonances.
Cone breakup through the sibilance region is I think what causes many dome tweeters to sound "brash" as you describe it, even if they measure fairly flat.
The other thing is the directivity control of the waveguide - most ribbons seem to have waveguides, and I have to wonder if some of the characteristics of ribbons are simply the directivity of the waveguide. (I haven't heard one without a waveguide)
You can get ribbons that don't use waveguide loading (raven makes at least one model) but they're generally much lower in sensitivity and would have even higher distortion, so I wouldn't buy a non-waveguide ribbon. Personally I think the directivity of the waveguide / ribbon combo is an advantage, not a disadvantage... and as well as the directivity itself the waveguide raises the sensitivity as much as 6dB over a non-waveguide ribbon, and increases the maximum SPL and dynamic range by a similar amount.
Some ribbons (I don't know about yours) have a broad rise in response at the top end so you may need to shelve that down slightly in the network for the most natural response, not doing so may lead to an artificial amount of "air" which can sound impressive and hyper realistic at first but ultimately causes the sound balance to lack "body" and sound a bit thin.
Good luck with the design, keep the crossover frequency for the ribbon above 3Khz, and 3rd order electrical or above and you should be fine.
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Once you hear a good ribbon, dome tweeters sound "rough".
My Heil is crossed at 2K (18dB) to my Audax HM130C0. Wonderful combination.
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thanks Simon, the reasons you mention are the reasoning behind me taking a listening break until i have a flat crossover.
The domes sound ok really, but it sounds more of a case of what the ribbons lack in their reproduction, rather than the reverse.
Its this that makes me look at the domes colouration, rather than the THD of the ribbon.
I have seen waterfalls and THD measures posted on techtalk i think, below about 2.5k the THD rises, but above 3k its below -40dB, the waterfall shows a spike in the same region, so i plan to cross higher than this.
The domes sound ok really, but it sounds more of a case of what the ribbons lack in their reproduction, rather than the reverse.
Its this that makes me look at the domes colouration, rather than the THD of the ribbon.
I have seen waterfalls and THD measures posted on techtalk i think, below about 2.5k the THD rises, but above 3k its below -40dB, the waterfall shows a spike in the same region, so i plan to cross higher than this.
You'd need to re-measure and completely revise the crossover to account for the loss of waveguide "boost"....
The Heil isn't really a ribbon though, is it? I was always under the impression that ribbons moved in-out, the Heil kinda does a "squeeze to center".
Thanks for the clarification. You're right, the Heil AMT are not ribbons. I always thought they were. Now I have an excuse to buy the Fountek NeoCD3.0.
Would be interesting to compare the NeoCD3 with the Heil.Wiki has some information on Heil AMT
Thanks for the clarification. You're right, the Heil AMT are not ribbons. I always thought they were. Now I have an excuse to buy the Fountek NeoCD3.0.
Wiki has some information on Heil AMT
Oh, I love the heil, especially the big one. Friend of mine that owned a stereo shop in upstate ny had a set of speakers that he used as his reference that had one of the older foam surround peerless 8" and the big heil. I tried to talk him out of them a couple of times, but his response was always "Million dollars, you can have em."
One of these days I'll try to cook something up myself.
yeah a heil is a motion transformer, which i THINK is like a magnetostat, except pleated, and attraction is between folds, rather than a pseudo ribbon magnetostat. All of these appeal to me, budget was important, so i chose the neoCD3.5H, versus the Mivoc and visaton magneto. A raal or heil would be good, i challenge you to find an example for £40 each, and ill buy. The pinching motion is another 'lever' of mechanical advantage, like the horn is to the 3.5h
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