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Old 28th June 2012, 03:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ODougbo View Post
In some circles, these are considered worlds best. I only used them once in a box in the back of a Chevy Blazer, they did sound great.

Never understand why they stop making great speakers!
Dynaudio did not stop making great drivers, they just stopped selling them to us after being bought out by TC Group.
They still replace old ones but you will have to send in the dead one to get a new one and they are charging double now.
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:25 PM   #22
limono is offline limono  United States
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
Oh, I love the heil, especially the big one. Friend of mine that owned a stereo shop in upstate ny had a set of speakers that he used as his reference that had one of the older foam surround peerless 8" and the big heil. I tried to talk him out of them a couple of times, but his response was always "Million dollars, you can have em."

One of these days I'll try to cook something up myself.
There is a guy in Germany , Luciano , or Lucianissimo I don't remember which, who told me he sells his speaker to all opera stars and Pavarotti himself bought one.
The speaker is a 12" Utah coax driver (tweeter removed and ball phase plug installed) in 5 Cu.ft (155 liter) ported enclosure and big Heil ribbon crossed at 1.2Khz . (last speaker you ever build he said.
Personally I would not use ribbon tweeter below 7khz 3rd order and preferably higher that that , but what do I know...
I was listening to RALL top tweeter crossed at 10k over the Lowther field coil (courtesy to Jon ,Lowther America rep) a week ago and I felt that it could be crossed higher that that .It was dragging to much attention to itself (oh , how beautiful I sound

Last edited by limono; 28th June 2012 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:32 PM   #23
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Originally Posted by limono View Post
There is a guy in Germany , Luciano , or Lucianissimo I don't remember which, who told me he sells his speaker to all opera stars and Pavarotti himself bought one.
The speaker is a 12" Utah coax driver (tweeter removed and ball phase plug installed) in 5 Cu.ft (155 liter) ported enclosure and big Heil ribbon crossed at 1.2Khz . (last speaker you ever build he said.
Personally I would not use ribbon tweeter below 7khz 3rd order and preferably higher that that , but what do I know...
I was listening to RALL top tweeter crossed at 10k over the Lowther field coil (courtesy to Jon ,Lowther America rep) a week ago and I felt that it could be crossed higher that that .It was dragging to much attention to itself (oh , how beautiful I sound
Yeah, the big heil is good all the way down to about 1khz or so. They say you can use em as low as 800, but I think I'd probably have a few beers one night and cost myself 600 bucks worth of tweeters, lol.

I think the ones I remember were crossed around 1.2 khz, 12dbe.
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:43 PM   #24
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My ribbons (Fountek JP3.0, their cheapest offering) are crossed in actively at 10k, 24dB L-R and they work fine like that to my ears.
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:59 PM   #25
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Default Re JP3.0

i looked at these but i dont think the JP types are available. The main difference is a heavier laminated on the new types. Of these the cd1.0 is cheapest. Nearly went with them, but the WG appealed so i spent the extra quid or so. I would love a real heil but i went for the affordable option, so that it doesnt upstage the woofer! I dont feel the 3.5H is attention seeking lol im crossing just higher than the minimum recommendation, with a 4th order/3rd plus notch at turnover. Higher would be nice, but im approaching the point of diminishing returns above 4k with the AL130. With another mid driver, however, it may be possible.
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Old 28th June 2012, 04:01 PM   #26
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Anything should really work well covering only 10k +. Apart from IM products we cannot hear any of the harmonics associated with 10k+, not to mention music contains very little content up that high.

I don't think Zaph hates ribbons or has an agenda with regards to them, more he finds them difficulty to justify and it is easy to see why. Most 2 ways require a crossover around 2kHz and most ribbons cannot cut it, if they can, they cost a lot and are generally large format so generate other issues just because of that.

In a world where you can buy a small dome tweeter for very little, that will integrate well with almost any typical 2 way design, you can see why the choice of a ribbon looks less then attractive.

So far I haven't used a ribbon in any of my designs for the above reasons. I don't dislike ribbons, far from it, I want to use one, only it will require a design that is specifically aimed at allowing it to work well with a ribbon.
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Old 28th June 2012, 04:25 PM   #27
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id have to agree with that, the small ribbons interest me, and i dont want to go too far into line source-like behavior. The price and the flat response to around 1k persuaded me to try them. I have yet to see if the higher xo means i hear the breakup of the AL130.
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Old 28th June 2012, 04:56 PM   #28
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
Basically he's saying they have higher distortion than a good dome tweeter which is generally true, the problem I have is with his statement that anybody that prefers the sound of a ribbon must prefer it because the distortion is higher...
I agree. The main differences between a typical ribbon and a typical dome are vertical directivity, and diffraction. Most ribbons are rectangular and larger on the long side than the diameter of a dome tweeter, so they will throw an asymmetric pattern. That is likely fine, until one stands up. I suppose I'm in the minority but sometimes I stand up when listening, so a more symmetrical vertical pattern is my preference.

Also, most ribbons/planars seem to be designed entirely without regard to diffraction control, with the element inset behind the faceplate, and plenty of abrupt transitions in the "throat." Look at this diffraction train wreck!
Click the image to open in full size.

I suspect diffraction is the overriding reason that, to me, ribbons invariably sound edgy compared to well-executed concentric drivers (crossed over high enough to minimize midrange throw, and with a phase plug optimized for concentric use, a la Mark Dodd's two variants, the KEF "Tangerine" and Tannoy "Tulip.") or waveguide-loaded compression drivers. (Domes on 180deg waveguides simply don't enter the picture for me, except in very very small speakers.) The only exception to that rule of which I can think is the Philips/ATD spiral planar used by Genesis. Sweet, sweet tweeter, if one can cross it high enough and is then willing to live with limited dynamics.

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Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
Ribbons generally need a higher crossover frequency than domes, that's part of the tradeoff, so they're often not a drop in replacement for a dome design.
The corollary to that is that to avoid throwing a mushroom cloud of energy in the horizontal axis at the bottom of the ribbon's passband, it either needs to be loaded in a real waveguide that actually constrains the ribbon's directivity, or the midrange drivers have to be very narrow. The ribbons with which I've played - Raven, Aurum Cantus, LCY - have all been on basically 180deg baffles; the LCY had a slightly concave faceplate but a sharp transition to the flange, like the old Peerless soft domes).

In the vertical axis, there's no hope for ribbons/planars/AMT's really, unless they're so long and have enough throw to play down to the upper bass.

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Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
The other thing is the directivity control of the waveguide - most ribbons seem to have waveguides, and I have to wonder if some of the characteristics of ribbons are simply the directivity of the waveguide. (I haven't heard one without a waveguide)
I've seen many more with 180deg waveguides (flat flanges) than more narrow-pattern waveguides. I wouldn't consider a little stub flare, as on the picture above a "waveguide" in any meaningful sense.

That said, I would like to hear a ribbon (or planar, or AMT) in a real waveguide, with a modicum of attention to reducing diffraction. Such a driver has thus far eluded me.
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:19 PM   #29
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The trouble I have here is that in ways I agree with what all of you have said.

I simmed my xo circuit that I used to test. It is NOT perfect. just a means of protecting the ribbon, and getting the response to as near that of the dome as possible; to compare the two.

Click the image to open in full size.

All I did was add another Resistor to the input side of the HP filter from the G20SC in my signature project, 10 Ohms, which Ive since increased to 12, to make it a little more 'Englische'.

@ Pallas:
I understand the vertical pattern problem, Im not a huge fan of moving 45 and hearing only the woofer....usually dull, and with luck not all breakup. With the AL130 it is DULL, a little high end comes through. But this is mediated a little by the 1m height of the speakers.

I half regretted not mounting the tweeter under the woofer, for a sitting position, but it isnt a problem with either ribbon or dome. If I stand up and move to maybe 1.5m (I am nearly 2m tall), then i get almost zero tweeter (just reflection off my clothing mainly), but to be totally blunt, Ive heard few domes that I could tolerate in near field.

I dont know why but i prefer cones or inverted domes within 1m-1.5m.

I dont know what the BL is likely to be for a ribbon, but I would imagine LOW. Flux is maybe 0.3T. so Bl/mms? what of that?

The ribbon does sound transiently better than the dome, but from what I stated above, can this actually be true?

enough postulating noobisms from me

On the WG transition thing though...the link shows the CD3.5H.

Madisound Speaker Store

From this angle in the picture, you can only see the edge of the ribbon, on the right side. The silver metal you can see is the polepiece on the left side. These are profiled to match the flare extension faceplate. There is the same mesh, and a small ~1mm gap between the 2 pieces, filled with the customary PU foam gasket. I think it does quite a smooth job of avoiding to many diffractive edges; not perfect, but more than the ribbon you show. Its probably around 60x40 or something.

The reason you point out is one of THE reasons I avoided all the other founteks
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 28th June 2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:46 PM   #30
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Default And where maybe, I disagree:

#1: Horns are great, but a fullrange horn, to me is like the Holy Grail.
Not attainable, not in this life. Multiway is the only way to go with them, perhaps more so than any other loading technique. But a good horn tweeter is effortless like nothing else. This ribbon comes close, only 90dBW, but effortless sounding.

#2: Narrower directivity is a compromise. I wouldnt cross a driver at 10k, ever. I dont like treble above 3k like a laser beam from a big driver, but i appreciate the reason folks do. Neither do I like 180 radiation of domes...not anymore. I tempered the G20SC using a felt square BBC LS5/3A style, and it helped a lot, but has side effects too unfortunately.

#3: I would imagine 'string' type resonance and harmonic content due to that resonant mode, could be worse in a ribbon, and I think that would be very very easy to measure and assume to be THD, which of course it is...in a strange way, just not produced by the motor, but the material. Perhaps that is another reasoning behind the laminated ribbons, besides durability.
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