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Old 22nd June 2012, 03:10 PM   #21
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Thats my point. Almost like a different vented alignment, if no stuffing is included. After all you can make any shape cavity resonant in this way. A pipe just adds predictable harmonics, maybe im being a little simplistic though. If thats right, then Im annoyed it took me so long to realise. What advantage remains then for using a pipe at all? ANy also, surely then, a vented 'box' can be made to follow similar rules, if vent and driver position is optimised in a similar way.
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 22nd June 2012 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 22nd June 2012, 03:20 PM   #22
cs is offline cs  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by pkitt View Post
I'm sure there have been a lot of accidental ML-TLs created over the years, and I'm just as sure most of them will be quite a bit removed from having an optimal performance that can be achieved by proper location of the port. I've used taper ratios from 10:1 to 26:1 with good success.
Paul
In playing around with Martin's MLTL worksheet, I have noted that moving the port up close to the woofer (classic reflex box style) considerably increases its Q factor, but the port resonant frequency stays much the same. The overall response then has a noticeable peak at the port resonance which isn't there with the MLTL.
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Old 22nd June 2012, 03:25 PM   #23
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Absolutely; a vented system can be optimized in the same fashion, but most vented boxes do not have an internal dimension, like the height, that is long enough to allow the overall tuning to benefit from the 1/4-wave resonant frequency of that dimension, and the pipe's dimensions are calculated based solely on the box's volume. When the box becomes a tall(ish) floor-stander, its internal height becomes long enough to have contribution of its 1/4-wave resonant frequency to the overall system tuning, and less from the port. TLs and vented boxes are cousins in the same family, all inherently 4th-order at their roots. An ML-TL is a close cousin, whereas a really long, non-tapered TL or a shorter but tapered TL are often more like a distant cousin. Frankly, the best application of a TL is in a 2-way system, either a TM or MTM or 2.5-way TMM, where the "M" drivers cover both bass and midrange. The TL provides bass reinforcement as well as virtually eliminating reflections back through their cones by the stuffing absorbing them.
Paul

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Originally Posted by mondogenerator View Post
Thats my point. Almost like a different vented alignment, if no stuffing is included. After all you can make any shape cavity resonant in this way. A pipe just adds predictable harmonics, maybe im being a little simplistic though. If thats right, then Im annoyed it took me so long to realise. What advantage remains then for using a pipe at all? ANy also, surely then, a vented 'box' can be made to follow similar rules, if vent and driver position is optimised in a similar way.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 06:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by mondogenerator View Post
Thats my point. Almost like a different vented alignment, if no stuffing is included. After all you can make any shape cavity resonant in this way. A pipe just adds predictable harmonics, maybe im being a little simplistic though. If thats right, then Im annoyed it took me so long to realise. What advantage remains then for using a pipe at all?
Without stuffing I don't think there's any advantage, in fact, there's the added of problem of pipe resonances.

Someone, it might have been Martin himself (though I can't find the quote), said that the only advantage to using TL software or speadsheets was that in designing a tall, thin bass reflex you would get resonances, and with a standard BR analysis, these would be overlooked.

When you start adding stuffing, then you're moving from a bass reflex to an aperiodic design. (Edit: The transition can be noted by the loss of the second hump in the impedance curve.)

That is, I think any empty TL response can be duplicated by a "golden section" bass reflex design, and any stuffed TL can be duplicated with an aperiodic box.

Still, it sure is easier to fit tall, thin cabinets in my crowded living room.

Last edited by Keriwena; 23rd June 2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 07:56 PM   #25
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I agree with you on one point; I would never recommend a TL of any kind for strictly subwoofer use, which is what you're really talking about in your last statement.
No, I was saying that I wouldn't recommend not using multiple subwoofers in a primary listening system.

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But since I don't use, want or need a subwoofer, all of my designs are for full-range systems, usually 3-ways.
And that's unfortunate. Because full range box speakers will always have bass response dictated by placement and room.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 11:09 PM   #26
pkitt is offline pkitt  United States
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No, I was saying that I wouldn't recommend not using multiple subwoofers in a primary listening system.

Okay, but that's the inference I got from what you said and your comments in previous posts sorta knocking a TL that didn't have a sealed-type roll off.


And that's unfortunate. Because full range box speakers will always have bass response dictated by placement and room.
Nothing at all unfortunate about it. My full-range speakers sound just fine in my room and definitely don't need any assistance from a bunch of subwoofers.
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