I am open to anything at this point. I actually love my crossover and might clone it. I have the details to scale the crossover frequency all the way up to about 5k which would easily get me in between the mid and high. People kinda look off when I tell them my crossover is a Heathkit but it is a fine little box: Heathkit AD-1702 Crossover That site isn't me by the way.
So I could make two clones, one for the bottom the other for the mid to tweeter crossover.
I am not familiar with digital crossovers, could you enlighten me?
So I could make two clones, one for the bottom the other for the mid to tweeter crossover.
I am not familiar with digital crossovers, could you enlighten me?
Two 15s even better.There are some advantages to a dual 12, but the single
I like dual woofers. I can mount them push-push although it creates another limit to how high they can go.
dave
Sure.
Digital crossovers make use of DSP (Digital Signal Processing) to give the crossover huge flexibility. That means things like:
- A large variety of slopes, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and higher orders
- Different types, Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, custom types
- Fine adjustment of crossover point
- Independent points for each channel
- Easy phase and delay adjustment for each channel
- Shelf filters
- Parametric EQ
What the digital crossover allows you to do so quickly and easily is measure your drivers, use some free software to find the electrical function that gives you the acoustic slopes and responses you want (very important), then implement those with the crossover. Presto! You've got a good crossover. You can refine it to your heart's content, or just change it to something else.
Different digital crossovers have different configurations. All I've seen have analog outputs, some have digital inputs or analog, or both.
Probably something like the miniDSP (revB) would be great to get you started. It can work as a stereo 2-way crossover. You can cut in the super tweeter with a simple passive filter tapped off the horn. Or you could buy 2 and have a stereo 4-way crossover.
Include in the budget a measurement mic and a soundcard with a phantom powered mic input. Oh, and a mic stand and some cable. That's all you need, apart from some free software. It's all easy to use if you have someone talk you thru it. I've taught many measure and design over the phone or by email. And there is plenty of help right here on the forum.
Thanks so much for that. I feel like Rip Van Winkle...a lot has happened since I was in audio other than as a consumer.
I read all about that crossover. Looks like it would take a lot of expensive mistakes out of the equation. Am I wrong or with two of those and three amps and you have a labratory. Back in the day we used calibrated microphones. I assume you mention of a mic setup does the same by giving you measurement feedback on how your doing. I am assuming there are no serious down sides, like switching noises, phase shifts, etc..
I like this approach. To be honest I was intimidated by perfecting my own passive crossover because as you change one tiny thing the rest of the world is affected also.
Now it's down to drivers and boxes.
I read all about that crossover. Looks like it would take a lot of expensive mistakes out of the equation. Am I wrong or with two of those and three amps and you have a labratory. Back in the day we used calibrated microphones. I assume you mention of a mic setup does the same by giving you measurement feedback on how your doing. I am assuming there are no serious down sides, like switching noises, phase shifts, etc..
I like this approach. To be honest I was intimidated by perfecting my own passive crossover because as you change one tiny thing the rest of the world is affected also.
Now it's down to drivers and boxes.
And the horn! I really do recommend an Iwata or JMLC horn from the source in Poland. Paper Mache horns are very good, too (and cheap!) but are labor intensive, for sure. Real DIY.
There are no serious downsides that I know of to the digital filters. The weak points of some, like the DCX2496 are its analog section and power supply. I have not worked with the miniDSP, but so far no one has reported those same problems.
Yes, a calibrated mic. You can pick one up at Parts Express. I also use a cardioid mic, audio cretin that I am, because it gives me better results in-room. Omnis are great for anechoic and free field, not as great for real listening rooms. I use a simple little AT2020 mic that I checked against a known cardioid (Shure SM81). It was so close to published specs that I just use those.
A couple of my friends use the A.E. 15s and are very happy with them. I've heard them and like them. Not sure which to choose for your project, tho.
There are no serious downsides that I know of to the digital filters. The weak points of some, like the DCX2496 are its analog section and power supply. I have not worked with the miniDSP, but so far no one has reported those same problems.
Yes, a calibrated mic. You can pick one up at Parts Express. I also use a cardioid mic, audio cretin that I am, because it gives me better results in-room. Omnis are great for anechoic and free field, not as great for real listening rooms. I use a simple little AT2020 mic that I checked against a known cardioid (Shure SM81). It was so close to published specs that I just use those.
A couple of my friends use the A.E. 15s and are very happy with them. I've heard them and like them. Not sure which to choose for your project, tho.
The reviews online are certainly impressive for the ae drivers. I wonder how they compare to the Fostex which is where I thought I was initially headed. They are a fraction of the costs which is very appealing too.
They (ae) also have a 6.5 inch mid. What would your thoughts be to do the two 15's and a line array of 6.5's for the mid and maybe planars, domes, or horns for the highs?
Anyone?
They (ae) also have a 6.5 inch mid. What would your thoughts be to do the two 15's and a line array of 6.5's for the mid and maybe planars, domes, or horns for the highs?
Anyone?
Gary Pimm in Portland has one of the cleanest, best sounding systems I've heard in years. Can play very loud, too, with no strain. Does soft like a charm. And not a horn in sight!
2 A.E. IB15s per side in a nested H frame (hard to describe)
1 Eminence Beta 8 wideband midrange, open back.
1 Hi-Vi planar tweeter circa 5Khz.
Pretty simple crossover for mid and tweeter, DCX2496 for woofer x-over and EQ.
Gary designed and built much of the electronics, too, which doesn't hurt.
2 A.E. IB15s per side in a nested H frame (hard to describe)
1 Eminence Beta 8 wideband midrange, open back.
1 Hi-Vi planar tweeter circa 5Khz.
Pretty simple crossover for mid and tweeter, DCX2496 for woofer x-over and EQ.
Gary designed and built much of the electronics, too, which doesn't hurt.
I am almost back to square one but I have made some quality decisions based on feedback from this forum. An active crossover is a definite so I guess three stereo amps are in the cards. I have some questions that I am hoping you guys can help me with. I have decided on a three way tower. I want accurate fine detail but I also want somwething can fill a large room when cranked and remain composed. My dilemma's are back to which drivers, how big, and how many. I thought I would fire off some questions and see if I can get some consensus from the collective wisdon of you sages. My quest so far has caused these questions to emerge:
Just an observation, but it seems that the trend among the most respected speaker manufacturers ( excluding the exotics ) is toward smaller but multiple drivers, especially in the bass region. Something like three 8" woofers as opposed to a single 12" or 15".
Is there a sonic reason for this or does it have more to do with the economics of building and selling speakers commercially...eg size, shipping costs, asthetics, etc?
Would two 12's be better that one 15" for a vented box? Is there any kind of "best practices" here?
Seas and Accuton seem to enjoy excellent reputations. I started out looking at doing one of Fostex's published designs but haven't received a lot of positives about the design as written. I have been trying to get data on Acoustic Elegance without much luck.
If you were trying to build your best ever set of loudspeakers what bass driver(s) would you go with?
What midrange and tweeter would you go with?
I was originally going to use a horn midrange per the Fostex plan but again, looking at what is being build, sold, and reviewed, at least reviewed well, is tending to point me to a more conventional approach. I see alot of MTM designs in their own separate enclosure or separate compartment of the one main box.
How do you select the best configuration for this?
Is there a good way to select drivers that are appropriate for each other so that the whole system is balanced well?
Would staying with the same "family" of drivers be wise...Accuton ceramic, Seas, etc.?
I have looked at plans till my eyes glaze over and haven't been able to gleen if there any "best" designs out there for a three way tower so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
Just an observation, but it seems that the trend among the most respected speaker manufacturers ( excluding the exotics ) is toward smaller but multiple drivers, especially in the bass region. Something like three 8" woofers as opposed to a single 12" or 15".
Is there a sonic reason for this or does it have more to do with the economics of building and selling speakers commercially...eg size, shipping costs, asthetics, etc?
Would two 12's be better that one 15" for a vented box? Is there any kind of "best practices" here?
Seas and Accuton seem to enjoy excellent reputations. I started out looking at doing one of Fostex's published designs but haven't received a lot of positives about the design as written. I have been trying to get data on Acoustic Elegance without much luck.
If you were trying to build your best ever set of loudspeakers what bass driver(s) would you go with?
What midrange and tweeter would you go with?
I was originally going to use a horn midrange per the Fostex plan but again, looking at what is being build, sold, and reviewed, at least reviewed well, is tending to point me to a more conventional approach. I see alot of MTM designs in their own separate enclosure or separate compartment of the one main box.
How do you select the best configuration for this?
Is there a good way to select drivers that are appropriate for each other so that the whole system is balanced well?
Would staying with the same "family" of drivers be wise...Accuton ceramic, Seas, etc.?
I have looked at plans till my eyes glaze over and haven't been able to gleen if there any "best" designs out there for a three way tower so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
Good questions Mike, here is my 2 cents, FWIW:
Budget for measurement equipment. A calibrated mic, a sound card with phantom power (M-Audio works well). Some software like ARTA, HOMImpulse and the crossover designer worksheets. Most of that is free. I also use a cardioid mic for indoor measurements as I find it "hears the room" much more the way my ears do than an omni.*
I hope that helps.
*I use the humble AT-2020 (calibrated) for this and find it works great.
Budget for measurement equipment. A calibrated mic, a sound card with phantom power (M-Audio works well). Some software like ARTA, HOMImpulse and the crossover designer worksheets. Most of that is free. I also use a cardioid mic for indoor measurements as I find it "hears the room" much more the way my ears do than an omni.*
Most will tell you it's engineering, but it's mainly fashion and aesthetics. Towers are in fashion at the moment.
Altec/GPA 416 or 515 is my first choice, but I have several friends who use the AE drivers and love them. I've heard them, they are very good.
Horns for me, of course! But I've heard the Eminence Beta 8A and Beta 12LTA used as midrange on open back or open baffle rigs and they were amazing. Very clean, pure midrange - almost electrostatic sounding. The 8" is much easier to crossover to a tweeter than the 12". It mates well with the Hi-Vi planar tweeters.
I'd use the midrange open back, either cardioid or open baffle. Woofers in a separate box.
Staying within a family line is not a bad idea if you don't have a lot of experience with the drivers in question. One thing that rarely gets talked about (here) in speaker design is harmonics. All drivers have them, not all harmonic structures fit together well. You don't want to be fighting that.
There aren't any. Go to any big audio show and you'll hear that fast. So many speakers, so many sounds. Often similar looking designs sound quite different.
I hope that helps.
*I use the humble AT-2020 (calibrated) for this and find it works great.
Thanks Michael,
It helps a lot.
Ok, if I go with a horn for the mids who would you use. I will probably do 2 15's like you mentioned once before. Not trying to put you on the spot...just need direction. The reason I will probably go horn is I think there is a whole bunch of complexities with open baffle type stuff...well beyond my abilities. Besides...and don't laugh...I may do another project in the future after these that looks a lot like the snell's biggest illusions...I just like that look but am not ready for that yet.
This though seems pretty straightforward to me. I will need to build a box and would rather orient the woofers on top of each other.
It helps a lot.
Ok, if I go with a horn for the mids who would you use. I will probably do 2 15's like you mentioned once before. Not trying to put you on the spot...just need direction. The reason I will probably go horn is I think there is a whole bunch of complexities with open baffle type stuff...well beyond my abilities. Besides...and don't laugh...I may do another project in the future after these that looks a lot like the snell's biggest illusions...I just like that look but am not ready for that yet.
This though seems pretty straightforward to me. I will need to build a box and would rather orient the woofers on top of each other.
You're welcome!
Horns are not easy, but if you're up for a challenge... I think I posted a like to some very good horns from Poland earlier in the thread. In the Group Buy section.
Don't discount the the simple and inexpensive Eminence pro drivers. Used in the right way, they are stunning. Super clean, as loud as you'd want and they just sound "right". Open back is easier for the midrange than horns. The nice thing about an 8" cone mid is that there are so many around, new and old. Start with one, live with it a bit, then play driver rolling to your heart's content.
Horns are not easy, but if you're up for a challenge... I think I posted a like to some very good horns from Poland earlier in the thread. In the Group Buy section.
Don't discount the the simple and inexpensive Eminence pro drivers. Used in the right way, they are stunning. Super clean, as loud as you'd want and they just sound "right". Open back is easier for the midrange than horns. The nice thing about an 8" cone mid is that there are so many around, new and old. Start with one, live with it a bit, then play driver rolling to your heart's content.
The fostex ingredients have likely quite some potential. You could start with the fostex filter but it s probably too simple to really shine.
If you go triamp / dsp / active filter, as indicated, then you have more options to get it right over time. Fun !
Considering ingredients, I would consider the Beyma TPL 150 air motion tweeter. Probably better than the Fostex, in fact likely one of the very best high efficiency tweeters on the market. There are a few designs with it, check it out.
For the midrange horn, and compression driver, it is worth spending time looking over manufacturer specs and searching for reactions. B&C has a good reputation, for example.
The fostex woofer is very cool indeed. I don.t know whether it is worth its price however.
If you go triamp / dsp / active filter, as indicated, then you have more options to get it right over time. Fun !
Considering ingredients, I would consider the Beyma TPL 150 air motion tweeter. Probably better than the Fostex, in fact likely one of the very best high efficiency tweeters on the market. There are a few designs with it, check it out.
For the midrange horn, and compression driver, it is worth spending time looking over manufacturer specs and searching for reactions. B&C has a good reputation, for example.
The fostex woofer is very cool indeed. I don.t know whether it is worth its price however.
How about a wmtmw plus subs, low-Q heavily damped enclosures, transient correct?
Thanks, but I would need a translation as that blew right by me.
I am trying to get back into the hobby after a 30 year hiatus. We had horse drawn amplifiers and steam powered drivers when I was last involved.
So, could I persuade you into spoon feeding me just a little.
I saw this on our forum here...it looks like where I was headed originally. My new friend Pano like horns like this.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/166309-check-out-these-new-horns-very-impressive.html
I am trying to get back into the hobby after a 30 year hiatus. We had horse drawn amplifiers and steam powered drivers when I was last involved.
So, could I persuade you into spoon feeding me just a little.
I saw this on our forum here...it looks like where I was headed originally. My new friend Pano like horns like this.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/166309-check-out-these-new-horns-very-impressive.html
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