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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 25th May 2012, 04:45 AM   #51
puppet is online now puppet  United States
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Say boris ... since you're intention is mag mounting, think from there forward.

Long pole behind drivers supported at ground level by a tripod .. one long (pole) leg straight back two shorter below baffle location perhaps? ( should look like a birds foot in plan view) Brackets/circular clamps allowing the magnet mounting/spacing to the vertical pole and flat "straps" attached to vertical pole (rear and wrapping forward) to support the baffle. Straps could also act as a form for your "muffler(s)"?

Should be pretty solid I'd think. Measurements don't look half bad either. "thumbup"

Last edited by puppet; 25th May 2012 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 25th May 2012, 03:45 PM   #52
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppet View Post
Say boris ... since you're intention is mag mounting, think from there forward.

Long pole behind drivers supported at ground level by a tripod .. one long (pole) leg straight back two shorter below baffle location perhaps? ( should look like a birds foot in plan view) Brackets/circular clamps allowing the magnet mounting/spacing to the vertical pole and flat "straps" attached to vertical pole (rear and wrapping forward) to support the baffle. Straps could also act as a form for your "muffler(s)"?

Should be pretty solid I'd think. Measurements don't look half bad either. "thumbup"
Thank you!
I plan to look at pre-cut furniture legs at the local Home Depot. An X shape will be most stable but if I don't find anything I like I will build an H shape one. I already ordered nice spike feet.

My initial idea was to mount another wooden board at the back perpendicularly to the baffle. I had trouble making adequate cutouts for the drivers so I abandoned the idea. It is probably the best solution, I just need to get more creative about how to get it to work.

I can use swivel-head bolts to press against the magnet and that will hold it solid. It's easier to do it from the back of the magnet but doing it from the sides can give it more more sideways support. I'm not sure which direction is more important although I feel like either way the driver will have ample support.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 25th May 2012, 09:14 PM   #53
puppet is online now puppet  United States
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Did a quick sketch of what I was trying to convey.
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Old 26th May 2012, 12:10 AM   #54
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppet View Post
Did a quick sketch of what I was trying to convey.
Nice! I was picturing something very similar from your description. Somebody actually posted a similar structure today. My trouble is that I can't do accurate cuts. The baffle I'm using right now is very heavy it's probably not a good idea to suspend it from a support beam.

OB with elegance
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:43 AM   #55
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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Default more indoor measurements

I did some work on the crossover.
The tweeter-to-mid is a Le Cleac'h phase linear 3rd order at 1400Hz. The mid-to-woofers is a bit strange. It's technically 1st order. The mid has no highpass filter but the open baffle naturally drops the response at around 500Hz with a 6dB/oct slope. The same effect acts on the woofers as well and to compensate I put a 1st order lowpass at 125Hz and boosted their level by 12dB. Interestingly, the woofer response drops off very quickly above 500Hz. (I later took care of the woofer bump at 1500Hz)

c411-drivers-eq.png

I did this crossover mainly because I wanted linear phase and I haven't been able to combine 2 Le Cleac'h in the same system yet. I'm not sure if the problem is that there must be some distance between them or I messed up the routing. Although unusual this measures and sounds pretty good.

kx-xo.jpg

The resulting phase is very linear throughout the critical 300-3000Hz region. The peak at the top is characteristic of my sound card and hopefully will not be there if I use another platform like miniDSP.

c413-system-phase.png


When I was satisfied with the crossover I measured the 0-60-90 degrees. I think they track pretty well aside from the peak at 2000Hz. It's caused by the DXT waveguide no longer working that low. I will try a higher crossover.

c412-system-lc14-0-060-90.png
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Old 29th May 2012, 08:04 PM   #56
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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Default OB doubts

I underestimated the power requirement for the woofers.
The baffle is 10" wide and has the dipole peak at around 500Hz. 250Hz is -6dB, 125Hz is -12dB and 60Hz is -18dB. If I boost the woofers by 20dB I will be putting 100 times more power into them. In other words with my 110W/ch amp I will be lucky to do about 90dB cleanly.
If I crossover to a sub at around 100Hz I might be able to reach 100dB.
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Old 31st May 2012, 05:37 AM   #57
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Isnt it a U-frame thus dropping the dipole peak a bit lower?

Have you calc'd the mechanical limits of the woofers?

I think a multi-sub approach will make you a happy camper
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Old 31st May 2012, 05:01 PM   #58
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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It's not a U-Frame, it's technically a dipole with damped rear wave. I want to experiment with adding small wings. If I can offset the dipole peak down to 250Hz and the response remains manageable I will consider it a success.

I've been listening to this speaker in my living room by mixing the left and right channels together. Obviously a lot of recordings sound bad this way but some vocals and instruments are rendered with incredible detail. A whole new level of clarity is being revealed to me that I didn't know existed. I can't tell if that is due to the open baffle configuration or the choice of drivers.

Measurements still show considerable room effects in the 60-500Hz region. I want to do more relevant tests before posting that data here. Subjectively speaking, the bass from about 50Hz and above is the best I ever heard. Bass guitar never sounded right to me before now. But what's gained in quality seems to be missing in quantity, I will hear the kickdrum very well but not feel it in my chest.

I was entertaining the fantasy that I won't need subwoofers but open baffle simply can't do it.
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Old 31st May 2012, 07:14 PM   #59
puppet is online now puppet  United States
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Same reality here. .. not that it's a negative. I've experimented with a HP of around 150hz and intend to add in some subs.

I'm quite happy with the 12" driver being used for low/mid duty to 1320hz in the short U frame. The tweeter is a big heil and they blend real nice. Taking the frequencies below 150 off the 12" driver has really smoothed it's response out.
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Old 31st May 2012, 08:19 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speaker dave View Post
We are inundated with reflections from all directions. If they come from the sides our binaural hearing lets us separate them very well from the frontal sound. We perceive them as added spaciousness or image spread. Anything that arrives on the median plane (the plane halfway between the two ears) we will have a hard time seperating out. It will be combined with the direct sound as a nonflat, comb filtered composite.
Hi David,

I'm not so sure about this because once you add head movement (and therefore HRTF-based directional "distortion") into the (aural) picture, height information (or the lack of) is probably of great importance for increased realism.
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