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Old 14th September 2013, 03:35 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
So much talk, so much math. No measurements.
All measurements are flawed!!! My ears say so!!!
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Old 14th September 2013, 04:30 PM   #102
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Okay, I as far as I am concerned they are just making things up.



Hmm, as a point of marketing (which it is and isn't claimed as otherwise) - would you expect thorough analysis with it displayed?

Additionally, should a speaker Co. spend the resources necessary to investigate this to prove their theory's conclusively to the world?



As a point of reference, at least as far as most major loudspeaker manufacturers are concerned, Vandersteen is very much an "objective" design Co..
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Old 14th September 2013, 04:47 PM   #103
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Additionally, should a speaker Co. spend the resources necessary to investigate this to prove their theory's conclusively to the world?
If they're marketing technical claims (as they are here), yes, absolutely.
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Old 14th September 2013, 06:28 PM   #104
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So far, it's down to the usual case where two mechanisms have been identified that might improve the sound quality but whether or not their effects might be significant-enough to make it worth trying to exploit them is still unknown, at least to those who can't or won't calculate, simulate, or measure them, or find believable results of same.

But no one has suggested that bi-wiring might harm the sound quality.

So the only potential negatives identified by the anti-bi-wiring folks, so far, are 1) "Don't waste your time" and 2) "Don't waste your money".

But I don't think we are going to "save" many of the idiots who typically buy all of the snake oil they can find. And there will be time involved for anyone who likes to think for themselves.
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Old 14th September 2013, 06:42 PM   #105
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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If they're marketing technical claims (as they are here), yes, absolutely.
Actually it pretty tough to prove anything conclusively.

Even most good research doesn't achieve that level of "known fact" without multiple peer reviews.



In this context though it's just advertising in the form of a "frequently asked question" response.


Hmm, I wonder how many products (ALL products, not just audio-related) that are in fact making technical claims - actually prove that claim conclusively?

I'm guessing the answer to that would be almost NONE.



There might well be the expectation for them to do so, but it's an absurd expectation.
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Old 14th September 2013, 06:46 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Hmm, I wonder how many products (ALL products, not just audio-related) that are in fact making technical claims - actually prove that claim conclusively?

I'm guessing the answer to that would be almost NONE.
Outside of fashion audio and "alternative" medicine, most do, in fact. When I've designed consumer products to be sold by major retailers (like Walmart), not only did I have to have data to back up the technical claims, but I had to have it verified by approved testing organizations (like BV). The latter may be a bit much to expect of small audio companies, but the former is absolutely a reasonable expectation. Either measurement data, science-based analysis, or controlled listening.
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Old 14th September 2013, 06:58 PM   #107
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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I tend to look at this subject as more of a "best practice"..


May make a difference, may not..

As a hobbyist, how much extra effort (and money) is it going to take to make the design *potentially* better?

Could that effort and cost be better spent elsewhere, or have I reached the "value" state I'm looking for with all the other portions of the design?


Of course IF I'm stupid enough to purchase 1k+ speaker cables, an extra run of similar cabling probably isn't going to be such a great "investment" to the design as a whole.

On the other hand perhaps I've spent only 30 bucks on my "premium" DIY loudspeaker cable, and have no problem spending another 15 on some lower (10) gauge copper cable for my woofer's bi-wire "run" (usually sourced from hardware store like Home Depot in the US). That along with a few other design elements (..products like some chunky binding posts and a post bridge and a bit more wire), doesn't have to be an enormous expense.
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Old 14th September 2013, 07:11 PM   #108
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Outside of fashion audio and "alternative" medicine, most do, in fact. When I've designed consumer products to be sold by major retailers (like Walmart), not only did I have to have data to back up the technical claims, but I had to have it verified by approved testing organizations (like BV). The latter may be a bit much to expect of small audio companies, but the former is absolutely a reasonable expectation. Either measurement data, science-based analysis, or controlled listening.

I'm sorry, but I HIGHLY doubt this. (..and I'm no stranger to Walmart as a customer.. or reading product labels for that matter.)


When it's a technical bit on what actually goes INTO the product - yes. Particularly if it's topical or ingested, the FDA makes requirements there.


But when it's an explanation for how the product works down to very fine detail - no.

The same is true for representations on how it will work for "you".


..and the reason is fairly obvious: threat of litigation.

IF the claims start "smelling like" something more than simply advertising then it exposes the manufacturer AND the supplier to an increased threat of litigation. And while that threat is always "there", any business that wants to survive is going to try and minimize those threats.
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Old 14th September 2013, 08:13 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by gootee View Post
...

So the only potential negatives identified by the anti-bi-wiring folks, so far, are 1) "Don't waste your time" and 2) "Don't waste your money".

But I don't think we are going to "save" many of the idiots who typically buy all of the snake oil they can find. And there will be time involved for anyone who likes to think for themselves.
So, this can and has been argued to death for ages.

But I say -

- DO Waste your time.

- But don't waste a lot of money on the first try.

Vandersteen has give the standard argument in favor of Bi-Wiring, but he has given it in the form of an opinion. No data to back it up.

Now we could wait for Vandersteen to prove his assertion, or we could just dig some extra wire out of the closet and give it a try.

It doesn't really matter if it does or does not make a difference. What matters is if you can hear a difference in your home with your system. I say if you have Vandersteeen speakers and equivalent amps, the you might hear a difference. But if you have common, even slightly higher end, Consumer equipment, the difference is going to be small.

However, even my opinion doesn't matter.

If you really want to know, if you want to prove it to the only person that matters, give it a try. If you like what you hear, fine. And if you don't like what you hear, fine. You've expended nothing more than the cost of the wire. And if you are like me, you have plenty of spare wire laying around.

So, the only logical conclusion that can ever be reached from this discussion and other discussions like it is -

TRY IT!

Just don't spend a lot of money trying it until you have established that it works for you.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 14th September 2013, 08:21 PM   #110
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I'm sorry, but I HIGHLY doubt this.
I lived it. Ditto when I was making wine corks, mouse emulators, touchpads, keyboards, game controllers... those damn customers actually expected claims to be backed up! They expected data! I spent years gathering and verifying it! Crazy, I should have told them to talk to you, it would have saved me a lot of effort and money.
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