Hi, I'm a new kid on the block and I need some advice. Teaming a JBL 2206H woofer with a 2426H high frequency compression driver calls for a horn, or waveguide....sort of device. Sorry about the ambiguity here. It is for a HiFi stereo that has been evolving for a number of years so the most important qualities will be the lack of coloration and the preservation of detail in recorded music. My living room is not so big, so dispersion is not such a big deal either.
Could someone recommend a horn (or similar) that will extend to the ~500hz region, allow relatively flat response in the extreme high frequency range without lethal beaming, and do it while not adding any new flavors to the brew?
Right now it is using a JBL Econo...thing horn that I picked up on from another thread. It sounds nice enough, especially given the price of $15.00 each, but response falls off the cliff under ~2khz or so and the woofer needs more room than that to crossover.
JBL 2370A Bi-Radial Horn seems a bit pricey @ $250.00. I recall reading that their sound was rather unpleasant as well.
Any thoughts?
Could someone recommend a horn (or similar) that will extend to the ~500hz region, allow relatively flat response in the extreme high frequency range without lethal beaming, and do it while not adding any new flavors to the brew?
Right now it is using a JBL Econo...thing horn that I picked up on from another thread. It sounds nice enough, especially given the price of $15.00 each, but response falls off the cliff under ~2khz or so and the woofer needs more room than that to crossover.
JBL 2370A Bi-Radial Horn seems a bit pricey @ $250.00. I recall reading that their sound was rather unpleasant as well.
Any thoughts?
I wouldn't use either. A parallel throat just adds echo. slots are bad, m-kay?
Maybe an 18sound xt1086 ? di plot look nice and smooth past 1-2khz.
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=178
be sure to get that high end boosted so it doesn't sound harsh !!!!!!!!
Norman
Maybe an 18sound xt1086 ? di plot look nice and smooth past 1-2khz.
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=178
be sure to get that high end boosted so it doesn't sound harsh !!!!!!!!
Norman
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Really? No horn is without compromise but, enquiring minds want to know. The slot width of a 2344 is 0.625". At what frequency can I expect to hear echo? Or is it reverb, I wonder what the RT60 time is? Maybe that ringing in my ears is not tinitus! Hell I think I'll just throw all mine away. M-Kay? Well no, not really.
Don't take it as a personal attack Norman, I just think that's funny.
some have a lot more than others
If they look like that Bi-Radial but-cheek, I would
I think that he is right.
Hi Barniskis;
The above is what I focused on, and the 2344 does most of those pretty well in my opinion, except for going happily down to 500 Hz. It is very easy to integrate and sounds the same virtually all over the room. I have them in my bedroom, my small workshop and in the 4435's in my office for the reasons requested and stated. I have many other horn and driver combinations and some are better suited for more critical listening but for a 2426 which is almost certain to have a Ti diaphragm in it, that's what I would and do use, with no apologies. The down side is they are getting harder and harder to find.
So from the guys who would use something else, what?
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nope, I'm not offended nor feel attacked. Opinions are like a holes, everyone has one. We are here to discuss, share, disagree, and maybe even learn a thing or 2. But exposure is probably the best, so we can go and seek out, try, and learn.
Horns are so so tricky. Think of the sound leaving the hole in the throat (at the compression driver). Ideally it just flows out. You don't want parallel walls (standing waves). You don't want "breaks" where the path (instead it bends and does so slowly). And to me you want a bit of curve, not a flat conical.
When you fix all these things, you pick up detail, like electrostat detail, instead of the "live" sound you get used to hearing. That "live" sound is echo/reverb added (pleasantly hopefully).
If I remember, a newer jbl horn(one of the progressive waveguide) had a cleaner waterfall than the 2344 horn.
I recommend playing with foam. You may/will have to add eq, but you start cleaning up the sound. Try the mouth edges, try near or even in the throat. You probably don't have room to play with that in a 2344 though. But maybe some open cell foam would work.
"Quote:
Hell I think I'll just throw all mine away.
If they look like that Bi-Radial but-cheek, I would."
lol, wow, you got some stones. lol, but I think you are right. I've been lusting for a jbl 2384 or a larger than stereo lab 400hz (um, 1' across horn won't hold directivity down that low), but I don't want the narrowing in dispersion that the stereo lab tractrix does (3 octaves wide). I saw a post where someone love his stereo-lab until he stood up. And then he walked around the room. Then he put his 90x40 horn back in.
The problem with it (2344) are the slot (parallel), then the drastic break. Even then, it is a better sounding horn than most, but there are better.
You can see the rippling between 1 and 5khz on page 3, and that is even with your 2426h driver.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2344a.pdf
look closely on the 2426h pdf plane wave. Notice no rippling in the freq graph (bottom right page 2).
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/caml/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=equipment:jbl2426.pdf
Notice the driver has a 750hz impedance hump, but the combo horn/driver has humps at 1khz and another near 3.8khz. I bet it rings a bit there there and sure enough you see a peak in the freq response.
4435 conversion to TAD2001
Get some $100 sennheiser hd-555 headphones and listen for a comparison. Granted, the headphones are time aligned (unlike our horn setups), true stereo separation, and zero room effects. Too bad the bass sucks and the sound is in your head. But it will get you closer to the recording.
Norman
Horns are so so tricky. Think of the sound leaving the hole in the throat (at the compression driver). Ideally it just flows out. You don't want parallel walls (standing waves). You don't want "breaks" where the path (instead it bends and does so slowly). And to me you want a bit of curve, not a flat conical.
When you fix all these things, you pick up detail, like electrostat detail, instead of the "live" sound you get used to hearing. That "live" sound is echo/reverb added (pleasantly hopefully).
If I remember, a newer jbl horn(one of the progressive waveguide) had a cleaner waterfall than the 2344 horn.
I recommend playing with foam. You may/will have to add eq, but you start cleaning up the sound. Try the mouth edges, try near or even in the throat. You probably don't have room to play with that in a 2344 though. But maybe some open cell foam would work.
"Quote:
Hell I think I'll just throw all mine away.
If they look like that Bi-Radial but-cheek, I would."
lol, wow, you got some stones. lol, but I think you are right. I've been lusting for a jbl 2384 or a larger than stereo lab 400hz (um, 1' across horn won't hold directivity down that low), but I don't want the narrowing in dispersion that the stereo lab tractrix does (3 octaves wide). I saw a post where someone love his stereo-lab until he stood up. And then he walked around the room. Then he put his 90x40 horn back in.
The problem with it (2344) are the slot (parallel), then the drastic break. Even then, it is a better sounding horn than most, but there are better.
You can see the rippling between 1 and 5khz on page 3, and that is even with your 2426h driver.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2344a.pdf
look closely on the 2426h pdf plane wave. Notice no rippling in the freq graph (bottom right page 2).
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/caml/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=equipment:jbl2426.pdf
Notice the driver has a 750hz impedance hump, but the combo horn/driver has humps at 1khz and another near 3.8khz. I bet it rings a bit there there and sure enough you see a peak in the freq response.
4435 conversion to TAD2001
Get some $100 sennheiser hd-555 headphones and listen for a comparison. Granted, the headphones are time aligned (unlike our horn setups), true stereo separation, and zero room effects. Too bad the bass sucks and the sound is in your head. But it will get you closer to the recording.
Norman
Just kidding. Sure no news from OP...
Just to give more food for thought links. What horn is good under 1K and good for upper 16 KHz as OP is asking for with no other compromises (using compensation)? At what crossover frequency?
JBL 2370 horn and 2344 bi-radial (this works at 4 octaves as OP is asking) links.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2370a.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2344a.pdf
Pi Speakers Horn/Waveguide Pi Parts and Options, Tweeter Horn/Waveguide (H290C)
The 4425 studio monitor with 12" and Crossover Frequency: 1.2 kH
Driver Complement Low Frequency: 2214H, Compression Driver: 2416H, Horn: 2342
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/recording/4425.pdf
Development of the 4430/4435
4430/35
The JBL 3678 -- Two Way Systems -- application with the JBL 2342 horn and 1000 Hz crossover frequency.
http://www.avc.hr/salesprogram/files/db_files/files/jbl-ds-cinema-series.pdf
For all that was said (low frequency crossover in this case) I would not use the bi-radial lower than 2.5/5Khz or for a 2-way in this case. Note that, for me is the better compromise for 4 octaves as OP is asking (little info in his part).
(edit) Nice pic of a JBL 2360 Flare Horns and Throat
http://houstonbeats.com/board/showthread.php?p=1712935
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I have worked with 2426h, and it's definitely something of a bear to get performing right. I can't get 20k to sound good out of it, it's better to let it roll off at the natural inflection point at about 12k. On the 2344 used in the 4430 it (well rather the near identical 2425h) can sound a bit harsh as it plays louder, but I can't truly point to whether that's the horn or the frequency shaping. I know that allowed to roll off on top with my OSWGs (or whatever very similar profile you want to call them- they're more "conical with smooth transitions), I've heard some of the finest horn sound around. But they still need a supertweeter... a whole 'nother bear.
Wow, lots of good stuff!
The crossover is a Behringer ultradrive pro digital unit that is really so informative and fun it should be illegal. NAD preamp and power Amps are against the wall pushing the speakers. This is my first adventure with Horns, errrh, waveguides.....I do not want ot offend anyone by using the wrong nomenclature. If it looks like a horn and squawks like a horn then it must be a horn, for my depth of knowledge. Then again if it looks like butt cheeks I don't expect it to sound like butt cheeks.I'm coming straight from the world of cones & domes...the clarity of a well matched compression driver and horn combo is astonishing it puts dome tweeters to shame, but it is not so easy to get it right.
The long and short of it is that It's obvious I am going to have to do some comparative listening tests to understand what we are all talking about.
Have ordered a pair of cheap test horns (Selenium HL1425) 45* conical dispersion but they extend down to 600hz to see if it gets rid of that hole in the middle produced by the JBL Econo horns. They will also provide more empirical information so I can offer you more meaningful commentery than what a parrot could by just mimicking terms and phrases from other posts.
Does the rule of thumb that says allow 1 octave above the -3db point before crossing over given a 12db octave slope hold true for horns? That is why I am looking for extension to ~500hz, not because I want to use it inside the bandwidth but for the elbow room it will allow with the actual crossover close to 1khz. That behringer can put a 48db per octave slope on the signal, my ears and calculater say that is like 2~3 notes on a keyboard with standard tuning. You can tuck things in nice and tight with a slope like that.
Thanks for the help, keep'm comin', I got a long way to go from here.
The crossover is a Behringer ultradrive pro digital unit that is really so informative and fun it should be illegal. NAD preamp and power Amps are against the wall pushing the speakers. This is my first adventure with Horns, errrh, waveguides.....I do not want ot offend anyone by using the wrong nomenclature. If it looks like a horn and squawks like a horn then it must be a horn, for my depth of knowledge. Then again if it looks like butt cheeks I don't expect it to sound like butt cheeks.
I'm coming straight from the world of cones & domes...the clarity of a well matched compression driver and horn combo is astonishing it puts dome tweeters to shame, but it is not so easy to get it right.The long and short of it is that It's obvious I am going to have to do some comparative listening tests to understand what we are all talking about.
Have ordered a pair of cheap test horns (Selenium HL1425) 45* conical dispersion but they extend down to 600hz to see if it gets rid of that hole in the middle produced by the JBL Econo horns. They will also provide more empirical information so I can offer you more meaningful commentery than what a parrot could by just mimicking terms and phrases from other posts.
Does the rule of thumb that says allow 1 octave above the -3db point before crossing over given a 12db octave slope hold true for horns? That is why I am looking for extension to ~500hz, not because I want to use it inside the bandwidth but for the elbow room it will allow with the actual crossover close to 1khz. That behringer can put a 48db per octave slope on the signal, my ears and calculater say that is like 2~3 notes on a keyboard with standard tuning. You can tuck things in nice and tight with a slope like that.
Thanks for the help, keep'm comin', I got a long way to go from here.
And if that's not enough and you didn't find it yet, here the JBL 2426 (and others) measurements in various horns configurations from W. Parham (PiSpeakers).
Pi Speakers - Product Measurements and Datasheets
Pi Speakers - Product Measurements and Datasheets
This is what I am talking about! I have a keen appetite for data, which is the reason I came to this forum in the first place. From looking at the uncompromised response graphs it is clear that the JBL 2426 can be made to perform from ~600hz - 20khz on paper if cost is not considered important. I SEE said the blind man, and what I see is that the Eminence H590 offers the most bang for the buck in this collection. But this ignores issues like build quality, visual aesthetics, tonality. I could spend a fortune just comparing the voices of a dozen horns with nearly identical measurements that sound nothing alike.
But the traktrix, a hand made DIY wooden horn is too sexy to ignore. Are there any other products of similar construction that will work from, say, 1khz to 16khz. Something I can build myself? Someone who could design such a horn? Or are my criteria too strict. Is 4 octaves too much to ask for?
Thanks to all who have responded, The historical JBL data is intriguing. I still have to learn what constant directivity means and if exponential horns are automatically honkers by definition.
Peace, Don
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