Hi,
Going by the paper specs they are very similar, impedance and sensitivity
wise. One would expect a simple x/o for for one of them to work with
the other, though a more complex x/o with impedance compensation
would need some tweaking to properly match the Fs differences.
rgds, sreten.
http://www.gattiweb.com/dynaudio.html
Going by the paper specs they are very similar, impedance and sensitivity
wise. One would expect a simple x/o for for one of them to work with
the other, though a more complex x/o with impedance compensation
would need some tweaking to properly match the Fs differences.
rgds, sreten.
http://www.gattiweb.com/dynaudio.html
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Thanks sreten,
I have a pair of these drivers and I thought of building boxes like this:
Dynaudio Impresion
but with D260 instead of D28/2 drivers.
I do not know how to change the filter to adapt the design to the D260. The only one information that I found is in the dynaudio "Double 17" kit where they add a RC when use a D260 driver (dotted zone in attached picture).
You think you could use for "Solen Impresion" dessign?
Or someone can recommend me a new design for this combination of drivers for small box?
Ramon
I have a pair of these drivers and I thought of building boxes like this:
Dynaudio Impresion
but with D260 instead of D28/2 drivers.
I do not know how to change the filter to adapt the design to the D260. The only one information that I found is in the dynaudio "Double 17" kit where they add a RC when use a D260 driver (dotted zone in attached picture).
You think you could use for "Solen Impresion" dessign?
Or someone can recommend me a new design for this combination of drivers for small box?
Ramon
Attachments
I'm not quite following this. Do you have the woofers or the tweeters already?
The tweeters are so similar as to make almost no difference, but the Dynaudio 17W75-XL (10-15L reflex) and 15W75 (5-10L reflex) woofers are rather different animals, which affects box size particularly, and come in 4 and 8 ohm versions which affects coil values.
FWIW, the tweeter Zobel comes out at 5.2-6.8 ohms and 1.5uF for Re 5.2 and Le 0.065mH. Dynaudio seem to prefer 4.7uF capacitor into 8 ohms padded tweeter, 6.8uF would reduce power handling and increase distortion. They seem to use a bass Zobel with a bigger than expected capacitor value, perhaps to rolloff the midrange a little.
For all that, First order crossovers aren't rocket science, so it's all quite doable, IMO.
The tweeters are so similar as to make almost no difference, but the Dynaudio 17W75-XL (10-15L reflex) and 15W75 (5-10L reflex) woofers are rather different animals, which affects box size particularly, and come in 4 and 8 ohm versions which affects coil values.
FWIW, the tweeter Zobel comes out at 5.2-6.8 ohms and 1.5uF for Re 5.2 and Le 0.065mH. Dynaudio seem to prefer 4.7uF capacitor into 8 ohms padded tweeter, 6.8uF would reduce power handling and increase distortion. They seem to use a bass Zobel with a bigger than expected capacitor value, perhaps to rolloff the midrange a little.
For all that, First order crossovers aren't rocket science, so it's all quite doable, IMO.
My goal is to build a small box with a 15W75 (4) and a D260. The most similar I've found is this kit designed by Solen but uses a D28/2 instead of a D260.
Dynaudio Impresion
I want to know if I should make any changes to the proposed filter to match my tweeter.
regards,
Ramon
Dynaudio Impresion
I want to know if I should make any changes to the proposed filter to match my tweeter.
regards,
Ramon
Hi,
Sorry my mistake. I don't think the x/o is 100% compatible.
I'd just build the x/o you intended and see if the added zobel helps or not.
rgds, sreten.
I think we can divide this question into two parts.
Firstly, enclosure. 15W75 6" driver is Qts 0.4 and Vas 7.5L and Fs 55Hz. Allegedly suitable for 5-10L closed or reflex box. The Impresion is 11L reflex, and I leave it to m'learned friend sreten to say what is best, since I believe he is good at reflex. Closed box is a bit awkward with this driver Qts, IMO, but hey, you could always stuff a sock in the port to try it.
I'll have a go at the second part. BOTH the suggested crossovers are a bit naff, IMO. 2nd order bass and first order tweeter is about as awkward as it gets on phase and overlap, and is not my cup of tea at all. I'd suggest this spiffing system7 conversion of the Dynaudio Sirius crossover to pure second order and the 15W75-04's properties will work nicely and the two resistors give you a bit of adjustment. The 4.7 ohm damps down the treble energy, and the (optional) 16 ohm damps down the midrange from 1-3kHz by 2dB which is female vocal range. It's an unfussy circuit which is rather good for your purposes IMO. I just amaze myself sometimes.
Firstly, enclosure. 15W75 6" driver is Qts 0.4 and Vas 7.5L and Fs 55Hz. Allegedly suitable for 5-10L closed or reflex box. The Impresion is 11L reflex, and I leave it to m'learned friend sreten to say what is best, since I believe he is good at reflex. Closed box is a bit awkward with this driver Qts, IMO, but hey, you could always stuff a sock in the port to try it.
I'll have a go at the second part. BOTH the suggested crossovers are a bit naff, IMO. 2nd order bass and first order tweeter is about as awkward as it gets on phase and overlap, and is not my cup of tea at all. I'd suggest this spiffing system7 conversion of the Dynaudio Sirius crossover to pure second order and the 15W75-04's properties will work nicely and the two resistors give you a bit of adjustment. The 4.7 ohm damps down the treble energy, and the (optional) 16 ohm damps down the midrange from 1-3kHz by 2dB which is female vocal range. It's an unfussy circuit which is rather good for your purposes IMO. I just amaze myself sometimes.
Attachments
Hi,
The solen x/o is first order electrical on both the bass and treble.
They are similar to the Dynaudio x/o's, but without added impedance
compensation, or the added LC delay ladder for tweeter matching.
Consequently an inverted arrangement might sound better, as
S7 said, phase matching can be a headache for low order slopes.
I really can't comment on a x/o presented simply as the values.
I'd have to fully model it, including BSC etc, and it would still be
only approximate due fine voiciing issues, e.g. distortion etc.
rgds, sreten.
The solen x/o is first order electrical on both the bass and treble.
They are similar to the Dynaudio x/o's, but without added impedance
compensation, or the added LC delay ladder for tweeter matching.
Consequently an inverted arrangement might sound better, as
S7 said, phase matching can be a headache for low order slopes.
I really can't comment on a x/o presented simply as the values.
I'd have to fully model it, including BSC etc, and it would still be
only approximate due fine voiciing issues, e.g. distortion etc.
rgds, sreten.
Attachments
Aha, you are good, sreten! 7.5L reflex optimal, eh? Very nice diagrams.
I've had second thoughts about that 16 ohm damping resistor, since we are getting very low on impedance here. I think this is more amp friendly around 5 ohms minimum, but I still like it over anything I saw with first order here.
I've had second thoughts about that 16 ohm damping resistor, since we are getting very low on impedance here. I think this is more amp friendly around 5 ohms minimum, but I still like it over anything I saw with first order here.
Attachments
I'll explain what I found with the 17W75 which is Le 0.17mH and 3 ohms Re. It's an extraordinary driver that is flat to 3kHz, then rolls off the cliff beyond that to next to nothing. The 15W75W (Le 0.15mH, Re 3 ohms) is much more gradual rolloff to 8 kHz, and seems to need more treatment from the crossover and more careful matching to the tweeter.
The lower inductance leads to a Zobel nearer 12uF and 4.7 ohms. You could use the Sirius crossover with just the smaller capacitor on the bass Zobel, but I still think it stinks on phase matching and overlap.
The lower inductance leads to a Zobel nearer 12uF and 4.7 ohms. You could use the Sirius crossover with just the smaller capacitor on the bass Zobel, but I still think it stinks on phase matching and overlap.
Attachments
Hi,
Run hipassed by an AV amplifier with a sub :
sealed 4L to 5L or vented 7.5L /55Hz.
Run full range (no hi pass) IMO the lower the port tuning the better, as
long as you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I'd regard
the 44Hz and 40Hz alignments as more "optimal" for full range.
rgds, sreten.
At the turn of the century, I tried a number of crossovers with a D260 and a 17W75 XL. The Foccus crossover (which is designed for the D28/2) sounded fine. In fact, it sounded better than the Sirius which was designed for the D260. I attribute this primarily to the ladder delay (a.k.a. allpass) network on the tweeter. (Likely due to System7's concerns about phase matching).
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Thank you all for your help.
I will try the circuit originally designed for 28/2, as it says benchtester, and if I am not convinced of the result, I will tests with your recomendations.
Furthermore, I received a new pair of 15W75 (4 ohm too).
You have any suggestions for MTM or TMM build wiht two 15W75 and a D260?
I discard the Gemini kit beacause my woofers are 4 ohms and Gemini needs 8 ohms drivers to mount in parallel.
I will try the circuit originally designed for 28/2, as it says benchtester, and if I am not convinced of the result, I will tests with your recomendations.
Furthermore, I received a new pair of 15W75 (4 ohm too).
You have any suggestions for MTM or TMM build wiht two 15W75 and a D260?
I discard the Gemini kit beacause my woofers are 4 ohms and Gemini needs 8 ohms drivers to mount in parallel.
I've had a good look at that Sirius circuit, trunkline. By all means try it, but everything I do with the first order tweeter gives a horrible phasey suckout between 1 and 5kHz.
This is where I'd go if you abandon the Sirius design and go second order filter. The 1 ohm resistor and 12uF capacitor doesn't look like much of a change, but it shapes the phase and Q on the mid/bass to match well and not shout too much. I went for a 0.22 mH coil on the tweeter because it's a preferred value, but 0.2mH is OK too. The 3.3 ohm attenuator is really select on test, because we don't know how efficient the tweeter is really, but I'd start there.
Oh, whoops. I didn't update the Zobel to 1.2uF! You'll have to ignore that 0.68uF value. It should be 1.2 uF.
This is where I'd go if you abandon the Sirius design and go second order filter. The 1 ohm resistor and 12uF capacitor doesn't look like much of a change, but it shapes the phase and Q on the mid/bass to match well and not shout too much. I went for a 0.22 mH coil on the tweeter because it's a preferred value, but 0.2mH is OK too. The 3.3 ohm attenuator is really select on test, because we don't know how efficient the tweeter is really, but I'd start there.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Oh, whoops. I didn't update the Zobel to 1.2uF! You'll have to ignore that 0.68uF value. It should be 1.2 uF.
Attachments
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I've had a good look at that Sirius circuit, trunkline. By all means try it, but everything I do with the first order tweeter gives a horrible phasey suckout between 1 and 5kHz.
This is where I'd go if you abandon the Sirius design and go second order filter. The 1 ohm resistor and 12uF capacitor doesn't look like much of a change, but it shapes the phase and Q on the mid/bass to match well and not shout too much. I went for a 0.22 mH coil on the tweeter because it's a preferred value, but 0.2mH is OK too. The 3.3 ohm attenuator is really select on test, because we don't know how efficient the tweeter is really, but I'd start there.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Oh, whoops. I didn't update the Zobel to 1.2uF! You'll have to ignore that 0.68uF value. It should be 1.2 uF.
I found the Dynaudio BM6 filter (17W75 + D260), is very similar to yours but keeps the 6.8 uF typical of Dynaudio for D260 and adds an LPAD.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I'd like to chime in on this topic.
I'm currently in the process of revitalising my pair of Dynaudio Audience 122's. These are equipped with 2x 15W75 and 1x D28/2.
I've always enjoyed these speakers, except for the cross-over region, which is specified to be 2kHz. Especially at higher volumes, they start to shout at you, which I don't particularly like. This problem gradually became worse over the years, which led me to think it might be due to ageing of the x-over components. I've started replacing the standard components with higher quality ones, and the difference was immediately evident. More space, more 'air', less shouting. In short: more enjoyable to listen to. More "transparent", if you will. The rest of the components yet have to come in, so I'll continue later. Then I also plan on swapping the standard wiring for Kimber 4tc. The wire to my amp currently is Kimber 8tc, fitted with WBT connectors.
But: I also came across a pair of D260 tweeters. As I understood from this topic, these are more or less identical to D28/2 sensitivity and impedance wise. But how do they sound in comparison to the D28/2? Will it be worth my while to spend some €250,-- on a used pair? Even after the rest of the update is finished? And can I just swap them? Does the x-over allow for that?
The cross-over diagram of the Audience 122 is attached. Inductor values were kindly supplied by Dynaudio.
Regards,
Ernst.
I'm currently in the process of revitalising my pair of Dynaudio Audience 122's. These are equipped with 2x 15W75 and 1x D28/2.
I've always enjoyed these speakers, except for the cross-over region, which is specified to be 2kHz. Especially at higher volumes, they start to shout at you, which I don't particularly like. This problem gradually became worse over the years, which led me to think it might be due to ageing of the x-over components. I've started replacing the standard components with higher quality ones, and the difference was immediately evident. More space, more 'air', less shouting. In short: more enjoyable to listen to. More "transparent", if you will. The rest of the components yet have to come in, so I'll continue later. Then I also plan on swapping the standard wiring for Kimber 4tc. The wire to my amp currently is Kimber 8tc, fitted with WBT connectors.
But: I also came across a pair of D260 tweeters. As I understood from this topic, these are more or less identical to D28/2 sensitivity and impedance wise. But how do they sound in comparison to the D28/2? Will it be worth my while to spend some €250,-- on a used pair? Even after the rest of the update is finished? And can I just swap them? Does the x-over allow for that?
The cross-over diagram of the Audience 122 is attached. Inductor values were kindly supplied by Dynaudio.
Regards,
Ernst.
Attachments
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