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Old 22nd April 2012, 01:03 PM   #11
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

The solen x/o is first order electrical on both the bass and treble.

They are similar to the Dynaudio x/o's, but without added impedance
compensation, or the added LC delay ladder for tweeter matching.
Consequently an inverted arrangement might sound better, as
S7 said, phase matching can be a headache for low order slopes.

I really can't comment on a x/o presented simply as the values.
I'd have to fully model it, including BSC etc, and it would still be
only approximate due fine voiciing issues, e.g. distortion etc.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 01:31 PM   #12
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Aha, you are good, sreten! 7.5L reflex optimal, eh? Very nice diagrams.

I've had second thoughts about that 16 ohm damping resistor, since we are getting very low on impedance here. I think this is more amp friendly around 5 ohms minimum, but I still like it over anything I saw with first order here.
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File Type: jpg Dynaudio2_Sirius_system7_15W75_D260.JPG (28.8 KB, 294 views)
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Well, there it is! Best regards from Steve in Portsmouth, UK.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 02:04 PM   #13
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I'll explain what I found with the 17W75 which is Le 0.17mH and 3 ohms Re. It's an extraordinary driver that is flat to 3kHz, then rolls off the cliff beyond that to next to nothing. The 15W75W (Le 0.15mH, Re 3 ohms) is much more gradual rolloff to 8 kHz, and seems to need more treatment from the crossover and more careful matching to the tweeter.

The lower inductance leads to a Zobel nearer 12uF and 4.7 ohms. You could use the Sirius crossover with just the smaller capacitor on the bass Zobel, but I still think it stinks on phase matching and overlap.
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File Type: jpg Dynaudio_Sirius_crossover_7.JPG (18.9 KB, 285 views)
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Well, there it is! Best regards from Steve in Portsmouth, UK.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 03:26 PM   #14
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
7.5L reflex optimal, eh?
Hi,

Run hipassed by an AV amplifier with a sub :
sealed 4L to 5L or vented 7.5L /55Hz.

Run full range (no hi pass) IMO the lower the port tuning the better, as
long as you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I'd regard
the 44Hz and 40Hz alignments as more "optimal" for full range.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 04:14 PM   #15
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At the turn of the century, I tried a number of crossovers with a D260 and a 17W75 XL. The Foccus crossover (which is designed for the D28/2) sounded fine. In fact, it sounded better than the Sirius which was designed for the D260. I attribute this primarily to the ladder delay (a.k.a. allpass) network on the tweeter. (Likely due to System7's concerns about phase matching).

Last edited by benchtester; 22nd April 2012 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 25th April 2012, 12:07 PM   #16
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Thank you all for your help.
I will try the circuit originally designed for 28/2, as it says benchtester, and if I am not convinced of the result, I will tests with your recomendations.

Furthermore, I received a new pair of 15W75 (4 ohm too).
You have any suggestions for MTM or TMM build wiht two 15W75 and a D260?
I discard the Gemini kit beacause my woofers are 4 ohms and Gemini needs 8 ohms drivers to mount in parallel.
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Old 25th April 2012, 01:43 PM   #17
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I've had a good look at that Sirius circuit, trunkline. By all means try it, but everything I do with the first order tweeter gives a horrible phasey suckout between 1 and 5kHz.

This is where I'd go if you abandon the Sirius design and go second order filter. The 1 ohm resistor and 12uF capacitor doesn't look like much of a change, but it shapes the phase and Q on the mid/bass to match well and not shout too much. I went for a 0.22 mH coil on the tweeter because it's a preferred value, but 0.2mH is OK too. The 3.3 ohm attenuator is really select on test, because we don't know how efficient the tweeter is really, but I'd start there.

Click the image to open in full size.

Oh, whoops. I didn't update the Zobel to 1.2uF! You'll have to ignore that 0.68uF value. It should be 1.2 uF.
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File Type: jpg Dynaudio_Final.JPG (21.7 KB, 241 views)
File Type: jpg Dynaudio_Sirius_Crossover.JPG (18.8 KB, 69 views)
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Last edited by system7; 25th April 2012 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 27th April 2012, 05:01 PM   #18
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Thanks System7,
First I'll try your second order filter (also has fewer components). If I were not satisfied, finally build the Sirius.


But first I want to know if I can exploit the new pair of 15W75-4 or sell them:
Quote:
Furthermore, I received a new pair of 15W75 (4 ohm too).
You have any suggestions for MTM or TMM build wiht two 15W75 and a D260?
I discard the Gemini kit because my woofers are 4 ohms and Gemini needs 8 ohms drivers to mount in parallel.
regards,
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Old 29th April 2012, 10:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I've had a good look at that Sirius circuit, trunkline. By all means try it, but everything I do with the first order tweeter gives a horrible phasey suckout between 1 and 5kHz.

This is where I'd go if you abandon the Sirius design and go second order filter. The 1 ohm resistor and 12uF capacitor doesn't look like much of a change, but it shapes the phase and Q on the mid/bass to match well and not shout too much. I went for a 0.22 mH coil on the tweeter because it's a preferred value, but 0.2mH is OK too. The 3.3 ohm attenuator is really select on test, because we don't know how efficient the tweeter is really, but I'd start there.

Click the image to open in full size.

Oh, whoops. I didn't update the Zobel to 1.2uF! You'll have to ignore that 0.68uF value. It should be 1.2 uF.
I found the Dynaudio BM6 filter (17W75 + D260), is very similar to yours but keeps the 6.8 uF typical of Dynaudio for D260 and adds an LPAD.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by trunkline; 29th April 2012 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 16th October 2012, 04:54 PM   #20
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I'd like to chime in on this topic.

I'm currently in the process of revitalising my pair of Dynaudio Audience 122's. These are equipped with 2x 15W75 and 1x D28/2.

I've always enjoyed these speakers, except for the cross-over region, which is specified to be 2kHz. Especially at higher volumes, they start to shout at you, which I don't particularly like. This problem gradually became worse over the years, which led me to think it might be due to ageing of the x-over components. I've started replacing the standard components with higher quality ones, and the difference was immediately evident. More space, more 'air', less shouting. In short: more enjoyable to listen to. More "transparent", if you will. The rest of the components yet have to come in, so I'll continue later. Then I also plan on swapping the standard wiring for Kimber 4tc. The wire to my amp currently is Kimber 8tc, fitted with WBT connectors.

But: I also came across a pair of D260 tweeters. As I understood from this topic, these are more or less identical to D28/2 sensitivity and impedance wise. But how do they sound in comparison to the D28/2? Will it be worth my while to spend some €250,-- on a used pair? Even after the rest of the update is finished? And can I just swap them? Does the x-over allow for that?

The cross-over diagram of the Audience 122 is attached. Inductor values were kindly supplied by Dynaudio.

Regards,

Ernst.
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File Type: png Dynaudio Adience 122 X-over.png (49.7 KB, 83 views)

Last edited by Jamesblond; 16th October 2012 at 05:04 PM.
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