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Old 6th April 2012, 07:08 PM   #81
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post

Assume for some reason not adequately nailed down,
the owner thinks the crossover can be improved.

rgds, sreten.
Is cheating allowed?
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Old 7th April 2012, 12:10 AM   #82
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
Hi,

Sprinkle your magic on this :

Click the image to open in full size.

Its a TMM allegedly 2nd order L/R at 3KHz.

Assume for some reason not adequately nailed down,
the owner thinks the crossover can be improved.

rgds, sreten.
With pleasure, my friend. That's the dumbest thing I ever saw, clearly designed by someone who thinks first order crossovers (which fry tweeters and sound harsh because they let all the high frequency breakup rubbish from the woofer through...) are some sort of cool!

Mr. Smart would just go and buy a Visaton prebuilt 2nd order.
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories

Click the image to open in full size.

This is designed by the same people who built the magnificent Panzer Tank, so we know it works!

(Let's get back on topic, eh?)
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Old 7th April 2012, 12:10 AM   #83
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
Is cheating allowed?
Hi,

You can cheat , but I'll know and won't be very impressed.

Seeing Strawberry feels qualified to comment on any commercial
crossover posted, just asking for more of the same for that x/o.

Its not a trick question, that x/o can be improved, question is how ?
If you've cheated you probably already know the point of the post.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 7th April 2012, 12:24 AM   #84
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
With pleasure, my friend. That's the dumbest thing I ever saw, clearly designed by someone who thinks first order crossovers (which fry tweeters and sound harsh because they let all the high frequency breakup rubbish from the woofer through...) are some sort of cool!

Mr. Smart would just go and buy a Visaton prebuilt 2nd order.
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories

Click the image to open in full size.

This is designed by the same people who built the magnificent Panzer Tank, so we know it works!

(Let's get back on topic, eh?)
Hi,

Yes well you've bitten the bullet and nailed your opinion to the mast,
admirable. This is very on topic as will become readily apparent after
our other crossover expert hopefully does the same, as invited.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 7th April 2012, 06:09 AM   #85
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
Right, but in any of the crossover alignments, would removing the filter entirely make any one driver louder? I understand what you're saying, but that's not what he said.
Yes. Adding a filter to a driver could make it both more and/or less loud. On that note, since we all learned yesterday that a filter has a 'Q',

Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
there is no need to get nasty.
..the topic to study up on should be resonance.

By the way, designing a speaker to a goal is mostly an exact science, not the Voo-Doo it was once thought by many to be. Strawberry, you sometimes(!) come up with some uncannily good deductions on your own. Yet you seem to undervalue listening, despite your own expectations. This is a fairly steep angle of approach to take within a learned community.
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Old 7th April 2012, 06:57 AM   #86
navin is offline navin  India
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob g View Post
Spendor is generally smoother than Monitor, it is a more laid back sound.
The only Spendors I heard (A6) with Roksan electronics were a it forward for my taste. I have not heard the models listed above. Are the modern Spendors more forward that the older models?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob g View Post
Yup. Spendor use Seas sourced tweeters....
The woofer looked suspiciously like Seas Prestige L series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
5th element, the inductor is about 0.5 mH from the looks of it. 6 uF and 0.5 mH? Disaster.
If it is not specified how can you tell if the inductor is 0.5mh or 1mh just by looking at it?

Even then 0.5mh followed by 6uf wont have Q high enough to cause ringing. In fact I would suspect that a 1 or even 2.2 uf cap in parallel with the exisitng 6uf cap might help drop the upper mids to a level where they become less aggressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
As strawberry has picked up, the filter rolloffs seem slightly staggered, hence the untidy double hump at crossover.
Maybe this was conciously done (by MA) to compensate for dips and humps in the driver response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roender View Post
I don't know if it helps but the midrange driver has 5.5 ohms DC resistance and 1867grams weight :-) Bass driver has 11.2 ohms DC resistance and 1788 grams weight
I dont know how the weight of the driver affects the frequency response. Mmd/Mms maybe but the weight of the basket, magnet, etc..? Maybe I dont know enough.

Mihai's original requirement was to make the speakers more listenable by taming some HF brashness. That is the goal isn't it?

I dont know why simple tweaks like a felt ring or adding a 1uf cap in parallel with the 6uf cap were not tried. These are easily reversible if they dont work out.

Most similar speakers (KEF, MA, B&W, Focal, etc..) can be tamed by room treatment/placement, plugging ports, felt rings, etc.. A bookshelf here, a throw rug there, etc.. often can help. These are reversible and easier to implement than a complete new crossover design.

My 1.5 cents.
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Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
The woofer looked suspiciously like Seas Prestige L series.
Reviews of spender speakers tend to confirm that they use SEAS tweeters. They do tend to state that they make their own mid/bass and woofers, however I think it's more accurate to say that they do outsource to a certain degree. Spenders woofers, especially when seen from behind look very much like SEAS drivers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
If it is not specified how can you tell if the inductor is 0.5mh or 1mh just by looking at it?
Its guesswork more then anything. When you're working with small sizes of less then around 0.5mH you can generally go with an air core without it having to cost ridiculous amounts of money to keep the DCR down. You'd only really swap over to a cored inductor if the inductance was large enough to make the change worth while. That and comparing the coil to others visually, it looks around 1mH, I don't mind being proven wrong though. it is just a guess after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Maybe this was conciously done (by MA) to compensate for dips and humps in the driver response.
Indeed.
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Old 7th April 2012, 10:31 PM   #88
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
Hi,

You can cheat , but I'll know and won't be very impressed.

Seeing Strawberry feels qualified to comment on any commercial
crossover posted, just asking for more of the same for that x/o.

Its not a trick question, that x/o can be improved, question is how ?
If you've cheated you probably already know the point of the post.

rgds, sreten.
I did cheat a little, as I was curious to see what sort of speaker Z was working on with this.

The great part about the 2 crossover versions is they could easily be a/b tested with a couple of aligator clips. Plus, after reading what he said about it, I'm almost tempted to try and build this one as my next project.

Quote:
By the way, designing a speaker to a goal is mostly an exact science, not the Voo-Doo it was once thought by many to be. Strawberry, you sometimes(!) come up with some uncannily good deductions on your own. Yet you seem to undervalue listening, despite your own expectations. This is a fairly steep angle of approach to take within a learned community.
Emphasis mine, this is essentially the reason why I push back so hard on a lot of what Strawberry has said simply because it's just stated, I.E "do this" rather than stated with some reasoning or examples "do this because..". Quite a bit of the hard time I'm giving isn't necessarily because I don't understand the theory at work, but more to encourage some actual explanation on his part, or even poop forbid, a little napkin math. So far, it's only resulted in defensive posturing when that really isn't the point.
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Old 7th April 2012, 11:24 PM   #89
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Click the image to open in full size.

It is near 2nd order L/R acoustic at 3KHz for the given drivers.

Hi,

The reason I posted the above is to illustrate how pontificating on a
crossover simply based on the schematic can lead you badly astray,
if you assume the designer is an idiot, and you know a lot better.

Given the x/o appears to be high pass 1st order at ~ 9KHz I'd
of thought that at least would be worthy of "expert" comment.

There is a "better" version, for those that prefer more even tonality :

Click the image to open in full size.

Point is though no amount of handwaving and debate about the first
version would ever lead to the second version, not enough information.

No argument would lead to the change of the high pass capacitor
value, or the additional response shaping elements to the low pass.

Faced with a crossover you do need to work out whether the original
designer is a muppet or not, here is a classic example of slavishly
adhering to a 1st order electrical x/o design philosophy that
effectively bankrupted the company :
Meadowlark Swift loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

Conversely you can't waffle on about features properly built into good
x/o's as though they are wrong because they are "not right" without
enough information, in my book that is arrogant and ignorant.

rgds, sreten.

I assume D.D. recognised the crossover and its source :
Zaph|Audio

S7's comments and suggested "improvements" are wrong.

SB wisely hasn't bought into being handed a loaded gun with
the safety off so you can shoot yourself in the foot with it.
Same intelligence with his posts would be useful.
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Last edited by sreten; 7th April 2012 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 8th April 2012, 03:26 AM   #90
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The defunct Meadowlark line had the Fried type of sound due to the use of series x/o and t-lines. I am sure they went out of business for the same reasons most companies go out of business.

Most of the high end dealers in my area are gone. I live in the fifth largest metropolitan area in my country. B&W, Thiel, Monitor Audio, ProAc, Krell, Wilson, etc. dealers no more.

There was a dealer in my area, Soundex which closed in 2004. It was the size of an office building with nothing but high end.


I wonder if the same can be said in the U.K. when it comes to the number of high end audio dealers compared to a decade ago ?

Many people in my area have purchased 3-4500 sq. ft. homes and love their Bose surround sound system.
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