Hello!
I'm planning on building a pair of Econowaves.
I've decided to go with the Celestion CDX1-1745 tweeter (similar to B&C DE250) and XT1086 - Constant Coverage HF Horn horn.
First I was thinking of going with the Eminence Deltalite 2512 but since I'm going to build a pair of subwoofer modules I wont need much performance below 80Hz for the woofer/midrange. Therefore I guess it's a better choice to go with a slightly smaller woofer/midrange for a better mid-range and better HF performance?
Which 10" driver is best suited for my application? Max price is £150/$240/€180 per driver and they should be available in Europe.
I'm planning on building a pair of Econowaves.
I've decided to go with the Celestion CDX1-1745 tweeter (similar to B&C DE250) and XT1086 - Constant Coverage HF Horn horn.
First I was thinking of going with the Eminence Deltalite 2512 but since I'm going to build a pair of subwoofer modules I wont need much performance below 80Hz for the woofer/midrange. Therefore I guess it's a better choice to go with a slightly smaller woofer/midrange for a better mid-range and better HF performance?
Which 10" driver is best suited for my application? Max price is £150/$240/€180 per driver and they should be available in Europe.
its ok i googled it, there high effiency house speakers...
these are fine for partys and fun,
high efficency often comes at the price of smoother responce
i found this http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_8A.pdf maybe a pair of these
if your going to be using a sub anyway.
just look for a driver that looks like is will cross well ti the tweeter, most drivers have a peek at the high end of there responce. the smaller the driver the higher the peek, and the better for you
will probs b needing to attuete the tweeters abit so they dont scream over the rest of the setup
maybe a nice horn sub for the bass, to match the 97db sensitivety or w/e of the rest of the system, have fun
these are fine for partys and fun,
high efficency often comes at the price of smoother responce
i found this http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_8A.pdf maybe a pair of these
if your going to be using a sub anyway.
just look for a driver that looks like is will cross well ti the tweeter, most drivers have a peek at the high end of there responce. the smaller the driver the higher the peek, and the better for you
will probs b needing to attuete the tweeters abit so they dont scream over the rest of the setup
maybe a nice horn sub for the bass, to match the 97db sensitivety or w/e of the rest of the system, have fun
I'm not sure I agree that the CDX1-1745 is "similar" to the DE250. The DE250 is roughly flat down to 1K, making it an ideal choice for a "hifi/pro-sound" build. The CDX1-1745 is -10dB @1K and would need a higher x-over point, which more or less negates any benefit of reducing the woofer size IMO. I suggest sticking to the DE250 personally.
10" woofer suggestions: B&C 10MD26, RCF L10/750YK
12" woofer suggestions: B&C 12PE32, RCF L12L750
The 10" options there would be stretched a bit with an 80hz x-over but it's doable if you get them into vented boxes (in sealed you'd have to move the x-over to the subs up an octave). The 12" options are more appropriate IMO, as they will handle the 80hz x-over point more gracefully. Alternatively, There are other 10" drivers, often ~3-6dB less efficient than the suggestions above that can play lower more comfortably.
The horn you have selected looks great, and with a DE250 loaded should allow for an ideal x-over around ~1.1K to a 12" or ~1.4K to a 10". I don't think the selenium compression driver you have in mind would hit these x-over targets as gracefully- (would probably require more complicated x-over design to flatten out the response).
10" woofer suggestions: B&C 10MD26, RCF L10/750YK
12" woofer suggestions: B&C 12PE32, RCF L12L750
The 10" options there would be stretched a bit with an 80hz x-over but it's doable if you get them into vented boxes (in sealed you'd have to move the x-over to the subs up an octave). The 12" options are more appropriate IMO, as they will handle the 80hz x-over point more gracefully. Alternatively, There are other 10" drivers, often ~3-6dB less efficient than the suggestions above that can play lower more comfortably.
The horn you have selected looks great, and with a DE250 loaded should allow for an ideal x-over around ~1.1K to a 12" or ~1.4K to a 10". I don't think the selenium compression driver you have in mind would hit these x-over targets as gracefully- (would probably require more complicated x-over design to flatten out the response).
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If I might make an alternative suggestion, the plastic SEOS-12 + DIY Sound Group custom compression driver for it, are some pretty sweet options you should consider - they even match angles
I'm guessing you might want an ML-TL to extend its response, but this is a driver that could be a wicked choice:
FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
This is an Econowave build and the filter with reduce the level of the tweeter.
I have a pretty small room so I was looking for sealed cabinets both for the top and for the subwoofers (CSS TRIO12).
This is a comparison between DE250 and CDX1-1745 http://i.imgur.com/0t0UQ.jpg
The CDX1-1745 is almost half the price of the DE250 and is easily available in Europe.
I have a pretty small room so I was looking for sealed cabinets both for the top and for the subwoofers (CSS TRIO12).
This is a comparison between DE250 and CDX1-1745 http://i.imgur.com/0t0UQ.jpg
The CDX1-1745 is almost half the price of the DE250 and is easily available in Europe.
I'm confused about that comparison, maybe there is something I can learn here. Why is that comparison saying something so dramatically different from what the manufacture response charts are saying? Not to mention, appears to be pulling off 20hz about as well as a 21" driver, that doesn't really make sense to me. The measurement position must be in a very unrealistic place.
The cabinet doesn't have to be very small. I was thinking of maybe ~60l or so.
In what way is the SEOS12 better than the XT1086?
Is there any gains in going with a larger 12" driver than a 10"? Is the improvement only in the bass-capability (which will not be used) or is there any gains in the mid-range too?
The Faital Pro 10FH520 looked interesting. Did some simulating in WinISD pro and in a sealed box it doesn't go very low. But since it can handle lots of power and handle excursion well I tried adding linkwitz transform EQ and extended f3 to ~86Hz and it stays within xmax (7mm one-way?) at 150W input power which should be enough (113dB 86Hz and up).
I will use a miniDSP for XO between subwoofer modules and top speakers, so EQ and such will be possible.
In what way is the SEOS12 better than the XT1086?
Is there any gains in going with a larger 12" driver than a 10"? Is the improvement only in the bass-capability (which will not be used) or is there any gains in the mid-range too?
The Faital Pro 10FH520 looked interesting. Did some simulating in WinISD pro and in a sealed box it doesn't go very low. But since it can handle lots of power and handle excursion well I tried adding linkwitz transform EQ and extended f3 to ~86Hz and it stays within xmax (7mm one-way?) at 150W input power which should be enough (113dB 86Hz and up).
I will use a miniDSP for XO between subwoofer modules and top speakers, so EQ and such will be possible.
Both are excellent Oblate Spheroid waveguides, but the SEOS-12 will give better pattern control. And it should save you some money if you get the $30/ea one even with shipping.
The SEOS-12 for what it's worth has the same entry angle as the B&C De250 and BMS 4552 as well as some custom compression drivers. I don't know what the entry angle of the 1086 is to be honest.
Better pattern control. A 12" driver will blend around 900hz - 1khz while a 10" driver will be closer to around 1.1-1.4khz or so.
Don't be afraid of simply crossing over at 100hz either. With multiple low distortion subs you don't need an 80hz crossover.
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So you suggest that the plastic SEOS-12 is a better choice?
What is entrance angle and how is it important?
Do you think it would be better to go with a 12" driver than a 10" driver then? Will the 12" give me a better midrange than the 10" will?
Multiple low distortion subs? I was thinking of one CSS TRIO12 per side. Does that work?
To be honest, neither XT1086 nor SEOS are oblate spheroidal. SEOS offers better horizontal patern control simply because is bigger. OTOH is smaller in vertical and I suspect it could have even a pattern flip. Vertical measurement is missing. I does not necessarily means, that SEOS is worse or sounds worse than XT.
12"er can you give a better midrange because narrows patern lower, hence less early reflections in-room. But you should find driver with well made cone and surround. The 1st ring resonance of the cone is also part of the problem. The same applies to 10".
I am in the process of looking for a 12 inch pro driver for an econowave style speaker in a SEALED enclosure. This is why I am partially hi-jacking this thread Many of the woofers I have found don't seem to like to like to go down much to 80 hz in a SEALED enclosure. I have found that many woofers only go to an F3 of like 90 to 100 hz (Or much higher!). I don't know if that is good or not. I don't know what F3 I should look for minimum for a woofer to work well in a closed box with a sub... I am still learning on that...
I am looking at the price range of 150 to 300 dollars for woofers (will pay more for high end if it's worth it). The "expensive" pro 12" woofers seem to be closer to a midrange and want tiny enclosures and don't play much at all near 80 hz where I need them to in a sealed box.
Is there any rule to how low a woofer needs to go for F3, F6 or whatever when using WinISD or similar programs? I don't understand how high the F3 can be before the woofer will not crossover well at 80/100 hz. (Most likely active xover with eq and 24db slope)
Oh, and thanks for the tip on crossing over at 100 hz.
I am looking at 12" pro drivers, to help me get a little lower in the bass/midbass range. Many pro drivers don't seem to be able to get very close to 80 hz in a sealed enclosure. A 10 would be even worse.
I don't HAVE to have a sealed enclosure, but will allow for more power handling and supposedly allows for easier integration with subs. I will be using subs for music primarily. Maybe movies.
Ironically, I put the woofer model that Gedde's used in his Abbey's, and they showed to have an F3 roll-off on WinISD of about 100 hz or higher. Not sure if that's good or bad
Many of the expensive woofers I modeled in WinISD seemed to be the SAME or damn close to the roll-off of the JBL 2206g/h.
I am looking at the DE250 compression horn due to so many people using it and liking it over titanium diaphragm drivers.
I am currently using multiple subs and love it. And they are not even set up that well. I am using 3 plate amps I bought at garage sales. Various woofers... Not bad for 30 bucks
See Gedde's on subs....
I would personally use a 12" because so many of the econowave builders (Zilch being one of the best) have used that size. Not a 15, not a 10 (I think one 10 was used in one build). And Gedde's seems to sell more of the abbeys, which uses a 12" pro driver and a DE250 compression horn...
I will most likely be using the QSC 152i style waveguide with the DE250. I like the way it looks, too. I will consider other compression drivers if the price is not completely ridiculous. For the price, the DE250 seems to be one of the best with no real improvements until you jump REALLY high in price. If anyone out there has other options that are not twice the price or more, let me know!!!!!!
I had whittled the woofer options down to the Kappalite HO. The LF has better bass, but a heavier cone and less efficiency. I don't need deep bass. 80 hz to 100 is fine with me.
If I get really crazy, I might cross over higher for a huge 3 way set up... But for the house, 80 hz with multiple subs is fine...
Is there a roll off anyone can post that might be a minimum for a sealed enclosure used with subs around 80 hz or so?
I hope my post jack isn't bothering you. You seem to be looking into something similar or VERY close to what I am doing. I just have too many options right now
Zilch used the KappaliteLF and HO in his deluxe builds. I think the Basic econowaves had the lower Beta woofers.
I like the idea of smaller neodymium magnet for a smaller, less obtrusive motor structure. Some of the pro drivers have HUGE, WIDE magnets and magnet structures that would block the back wave a bit.
What woofers out there are better than the kappalites, for the price? I would like to find something that can go to 80hz and be clean and somewhat smooth. Thanks! Todd
Many of the woofers I have found don't seem to like to like to go down much to 80 hz in a SEALED enclosure. I have found that many woofers only go to an F3 of like 90 to 100 hz (Or much higher!). I don't know if that is good or not. I don't know what F3 I should look for minimum for a woofer to work well in a closed box with a sub... I am still learning on that...I am looking at the price range of 150 to 300 dollars for woofers (will pay more for high end if it's worth it). The "expensive" pro 12" woofers seem to be closer to a midrange and want tiny enclosures and don't play much at all near 80 hz where I need them to in a sealed box.
Is there any rule to how low a woofer needs to go for F3, F6 or whatever when using WinISD or similar programs? I don't understand how high the F3 can be before the woofer will not crossover well at 80/100 hz. (Most likely active xover with eq and 24db slope)
Oh, and thanks for the tip on crossing over at 100 hz.
I am looking at 12" pro drivers, to help me get a little lower in the bass/midbass range. Many pro drivers don't seem to be able to get very close to 80 hz in a sealed enclosure. A 10 would be even worse.
I don't HAVE to have a sealed enclosure, but will allow for more power handling and supposedly allows for easier integration with subs. I will be using subs for music primarily. Maybe movies.
Ironically, I put the woofer model that Gedde's used in his Abbey's, and they showed to have an F3 roll-off on WinISD of about 100 hz or higher. Not sure if that's good or bad
Many of the expensive woofers I modeled in WinISD seemed to be the SAME or damn close to the roll-off of the JBL 2206g/h.
I am looking at the DE250 compression horn due to so many people using it and liking it over titanium diaphragm drivers.
I am currently using multiple subs and love it. And they are not even set up that well. I am using 3 plate amps I bought at garage sales. Various woofers... Not bad for 30 bucks
See Gedde's on subs....
I would personally use a 12" because so many of the econowave builders (Zilch being one of the best) have used that size. Not a 15, not a 10 (I think one 10 was used in one build). And Gedde's seems to sell more of the abbeys, which uses a 12" pro driver and a DE250 compression horn...
I will most likely be using the QSC 152i style waveguide with the DE250. I like the way it looks, too. I will consider other compression drivers if the price is not completely ridiculous. For the price, the DE250 seems to be one of the best with no real improvements until you jump REALLY high in price. If anyone out there has other options that are not twice the price or more, let me know!!!!!!
I had whittled the woofer options down to the Kappalite HO. The LF has better bass, but a heavier cone and less efficiency. I don't need deep bass. 80 hz to 100 is fine with me.
If I get really crazy, I might cross over higher for a huge 3 way set up... But for the house, 80 hz with multiple subs is fine...
Is there a roll off anyone can post that might be a minimum for a sealed enclosure used with subs around 80 hz or so?
I hope my post jack isn't bothering you. You seem to be looking into something similar or VERY close to what I am doing. I just have too many options right now
Zilch used the KappaliteLF and HO in his deluxe builds. I think the Basic econowaves had the lower Beta woofers.
I like the idea of smaller neodymium magnet for a smaller, less obtrusive motor structure. Some of the pro drivers have HUGE, WIDE magnets and magnet structures that would block the back wave a bit.
What woofers out there are better than the kappalites, for the price? I would like to find something that can go to 80hz and be clean and somewhat smooth. Thanks! Todd
The SEOS is most certainly oblate spheroidal. It's not a conical OS guide, though.
It's name is literally "Superellipse Oblate Spheroidal".
I might be wrong on the 1086 though.
I've seen the vertical measurements and they are very nice.
I'm sure both are excellent choices but yes I would recommend the SEOS-12 over the 18Sound 1086
The throat angle is the first possible discontinuity in the transition from driver to horn. Get that mismatched and it will only be amplified. Pick the wrong tweeter for the horn and you're not setting yourself up for the best possible results.
That depends on the specific driver's behavior, but a 12" driver will give you less room-influenced sound which is the main reason for going with this style of speaker.
It might be okay. How about four JBL W15GTIs?
100hz is completely adequate an F3. Remember to get deeper you trade efficiency.
It's "acceptable".
If you can personally deal with the sheer physical size of 15" woofer and a good 2" roundover, go for it
In a real room, you won't get any picture perfect rolloff anyways. The difference between F3 and F6 at 80-100hz ain't all that big to be honest - your room will give as much as 15db variance anyways.
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