Again, not arguing... just pointing it out as an example of an old audio technology that sounded pretty good, all things considered.
Depends how you're using it. It can be combined with a filler such as wood flour for molding solids, or it can be used with paper and fabric to make laminated sheets, rods and tubes. But it's all effectively "Baktelite" as Bakelite was just the trade name. Just as "Ebonite" is a trade name for hard rubber.
se
I've never heard a Western Electric speaker. I know they get obscene money for them and I also respect the engineering and construction quality that went into them, but do I really think they would surpass anything similar from today? No way!
Its hard to make the point on a nostalgia driven forum such as this, but there has been slow and steady progress throughout the era. I collect cameras and have measured lenses and you see the same. The Japanese outdid the Germans and slow progress is evident if you look at one decade's best vs. the next.
I may have mentioned that, at Snell, we pulled out a pair of Snell A's that had just been serviced (working perfectly) and set them up next to some XA90's. When we A/B-ed we were shocked at the differences, the type A's were clearly more colored.
I've heard Klipshorns and, in spite of some positive qualities, I wouldn't want a pair. I've heard JBL Paragons and they were laughably bad. Bose 901's? AR3s?, certainly dated.
If we are talking a WE theater speaker then we would have to set it up against a modern theater speaker, such as a JBL 4675 or 4632. The objective performance differences that would be apparent are the JBL's CD performance would give hugely better uniformity across an audience setng area. The compression driver would pick up an Octave of high end and the power handling throughout the range would be tenfold better. LF extension from the direct radiator woofers would be at least an Octave lower. I'm guessing the Octave to Octave balance would be better and I know the horn colorations would be significantly reduced.
As for "everything leading up to"... we are talking about that era's source material that came from 78s played with ounces of tracking force or optical soundtracks, plus power amplifiers that, in spite of nostalgic view to the contrary, really do perform much better today.
Sorry,
David S
Its hard to make the point on a nostalgia driven forum such as this, but there has been slow and steady progress throughout the era. I collect cameras and have measured lenses and you see the same. The Japanese outdid the Germans and slow progress is evident if you look at one decade's best vs. the next.
I may have mentioned that, at Snell, we pulled out a pair of Snell A's that had just been serviced (working perfectly) and set them up next to some XA90's. When we A/B-ed we were shocked at the differences, the type A's were clearly more colored.
I've heard Klipshorns and, in spite of some positive qualities, I wouldn't want a pair. I've heard JBL Paragons and they were laughably bad. Bose 901's? AR3s?, certainly dated.
If we are talking a WE theater speaker then we would have to set it up against a modern theater speaker, such as a JBL 4675 or 4632. The objective performance differences that would be apparent are the JBL's CD performance would give hugely better uniformity across an audience setng area. The compression driver would pick up an Octave of high end and the power handling throughout the range would be tenfold better. LF extension from the direct radiator woofers would be at least an Octave lower. I'm guessing the Octave to Octave balance would be better and I know the horn colorations would be significantly reduced.
As for "everything leading up to"... we are talking about that era's source material that came from 78s played with ounces of tracking force or optical soundtracks, plus power amplifiers that, in spite of nostalgic view to the contrary, really do perform much better today.
Sorry,
David S
Copies of the WE555 are being made.
Some in China, some in Japan.
Nobody seems to think that they sound as good as the original.
I have not personally been able to hear the copies.
Those who I know personally that have heard both concur that the copies do not quite
have the same qualities as the originals.
I am reasonably sure this is due to more than mere "aging".
There are copies of the horns as well.
Look, I'm not a crazed WE guy at all, but it's important to recognize just how good this stuff is and was.
_-_-bear
PS. I do own an etched, stainless steel genuine 2 foot long Western Electric Company ruler. In the interests of full disclosure. Also a few WE tubes.
Some in China, some in Japan.
Nobody seems to think that they sound as good as the original.
I have not personally been able to hear the copies.
Those who I know personally that have heard both concur that the copies do not quite
have the same qualities as the originals.
I am reasonably sure this is due to more than mere "aging".
There are copies of the horns as well.
Look, I'm not a crazed WE guy at all, but it's important to recognize just how good this stuff is and was.
_-_-bear
PS. I do own an etched, stainless steel genuine 2 foot long Western Electric Company ruler. In the interests of full disclosure. Also a few WE tubes.
Dave!
"I've never heard a Western Electric speaker."
Geez mon!
Get thee to a place where they are!!
You can take ur extra octave and better coverage and have fun with it!!
Heck, you can get a Danley sub and get an octave on the bottom too... and?
It's not in the "coverage" or the "octaves", or any other parameter.
Where the holy grail lies is in effortless and natural sound.
Fwiw, there is a *movie theater* that I know of - a true hole in the wall - that has a 100% WE sound system behind the screen! You can go see a movie there! Today. Well, later today anyhow.
Effortless and natural. That's the whole game as far as I am concerned. I have yet to hear a "PA/SR" anytime in the last 40 years that came close to that. Loud, clean, sure. Not natural and invisible, as in "are there any speakers that are playing?"
And obviously there are much louder speakers and systems today.
_-_-bear
"I've never heard a Western Electric speaker."
Geez mon!
Get thee to a place where they are!!
You can take ur extra octave and better coverage and have fun with it!!
Heck, you can get a Danley sub and get an octave on the bottom too... and?
It's not in the "coverage" or the "octaves", or any other parameter.
Where the holy grail lies is in effortless and natural sound.
Fwiw, there is a *movie theater* that I know of - a true hole in the wall - that has a 100% WE sound system behind the screen! You can go see a movie there! Today. Well, later today anyhow.
Effortless and natural. That's the whole game as far as I am concerned. I have yet to hear a "PA/SR" anytime in the last 40 years that came close to that. Loud, clean, sure. Not natural and invisible, as in "are there any speakers that are playing?"
And obviously there are much louder speakers and systems today.
_-_-bear
I was told that one of the reasons why WE equipment has proven to be so reliable is that as their equipment was leased to cinemas they WE were themselves responsible for maintenance and repairs as part of the lease agreement. They ensured that they were seldom called out by insisting from the outset on the best design and implementation possible. For financial and legal reasons they latterly operated in the UK under the name Westrex, but the bulk of the actual equipment was imported from the States and finally assembled here.
I have had several of their amps at home, most of which had languished unused in old cinema storerooms. Nearly every one started up first go and sounded respectable. In top order they still take a lot of beating for the pure enjoyment of music.
Speakers were a big problem as the sheer size of a minimal set up was not possible to contain in the average living room - the wife acceptance factor, not only of the speaker set-up, but of the owner also - was nil. I had about 14 555 drivers under a spare-room bed for many years but simply had to give these away as - at that time - no-one in the UK seemed to want them....no doubt they went straight to Japan. I also had two pairs of pancake 10" drivers which I would kill for now!!!
I have had several of their amps at home, most of which had languished unused in old cinema storerooms. Nearly every one started up first go and sounded respectable. In top order they still take a lot of beating for the pure enjoyment of music.
Speakers were a big problem as the sheer size of a minimal set up was not possible to contain in the average living room - the wife acceptance factor, not only of the speaker set-up, but of the owner also - was nil. I had about 14 555 drivers under a spare-room bed for many years but simply had to give these away as - at that time - no-one in the UK seemed to want them....no doubt they went straight to Japan. I also had two pairs of pancake 10" drivers which I would kill for now!!!
OK, I was not aware. I thought it was simply polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride and that's it.
I'm okay with the concept that a vintage unit may fall behind in objective parameters yet have an appealing rightness to the sound. Its just that anytime I've heard any speaker from the 60's or earlier, no matter what the reputation that proceeded, the sound was always a disappointment totally on the grounds of naturalness.
Old speakers weren't flat. The horns were inherently non-flat and varied at every angle. Crossovers came out of a design table and had no regard for the actual driver shapes or how sections might add in a point in space, so the final systems weren't flat. Not even for a few Octaves in the middle which might let voices sound natural.
I love audio design history and read everything old that I can find. There wasn't much ability to measure and plot frequency response before WW2. The only real exception I know of is Hilliard and the gang at Altec, well after the Western Electric era had peaked. (At the RKO ranch)
As much magic as we would like to ascribe to older technology, put one of these units behind a curtain next to a modern equivalent and I guarantee you will laugh out loud every time you switch to the older unit. (Due to its retrograde performance.)
I know, I've done it.
David S.
OK, I was not aware. I thought it was simply polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride and that's it.
The trademark for Bakelite was first filed in 1908. Its G&S was given as: CONDENSATION PRODUCTS OF PHENOL AND FORMALDEHYDE. And it's phenol formaldehyde resins that we most commonly and generically refer to in this context as "phenolic." So whether it's a knob, or the diaphragm of a compression driver, it wouldn't be inappropriate to call it "Bakelite."
se
What rubbish. It's made from milk curdled with vinegar which is pretty much like cottage cheese. Rinsed under the tap and then squeezed into whatever shape you want. I made a napkin ring as part of my relentless investigation of chemistry. After a couple of weeks of soaking in smelly formaldehyde solution and shrinking to about 2/3 of the original size, it sets into a hardish solid napkin ring. They used to make telephones and ashtrays out of it too.
I enjoyed the video about the 50% efficient Western Electric horn speaker. The fact is that horns couple the diaphragm to the air incredibly well. The coil and diaphragm hardly moves at all, but the air in the horn moves A LOT. So it probably doesn't much matter what the diaphragm is made of.
What rubbish. It's made from milk curdled with vinegar which is pretty much like cottage cheese. Rinsed under the tap and then squeezed into whatever shape you want. I made a napkin ring as part of my relentless investigation of chemistry. After a couple of weeks of soaking in smelly formaldehyde solution and shrinking to about 2/3 of the original size, it sets into a hardish solid napkin ring. They used to make telephones and ashtrays out of it too.
What?! Western Electric diaphragms were made from milk curdled with vinegar?
That does sound cheesy.
David
Well Dave, I've actually heard the big W.E. systems and the related Vitaphone systems. There just isn't anything similar today, so it's apples and oranges.
Within their limits, I've never heard anything better.
Sure, what we have today is louder, stronger, cheaper, smaller and much of it has has more bandwidth (if done as a multiway) but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good, open or natural within its bandwidth.
I do agree with you about vintage sources, recording techniques and some of the amps, but the top of the line Western Electric speakers? No. What they managed to do back in the 20s remains amazing, even to this day. Nothing I've heard can compare for SQ.
You must be talking about horns , even modern ones sound as you describe , not so for quads ,leak , KLH, and others from that era ....
What rubbish. It's made from milk curdled with vinegar which is pretty much like cottage cheese. Rinsed under the tap and then squeezed into whatever shape you want. I made a napkin ring as part of my relentless investigation of chemistry. After a couple of weeks of soaking in smelly formaldehyde solution and shrinking to about 2/3 of the original size, it sets into a hardish solid napkin ring. They used to make telephones and ashtrays out of it too.
Yeah, it's pretty cool stuff.
I remember my grandparents used to have some of these old Daka-Ware (yet another trade name for phenolic) ash trays made by Davies.
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Coming full circle, I'm using these big-*** (What? I thought some more sensible folks made the nanny filter here a bit less absurd. Guess not) Davies Daka-Ware knobs on my headphone amp.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
se
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