I'm thinking of building a 1950s-style stereo console for my living room and have come up with a design that looks roughly like this:
The goals of the project are:
My current setup is as follows:
So, given that I like Focal components, I'm thinking about building a Focal-based MTM kit from Zalytron and basically inserting them into the console, which I'll make from furniture grade Maple or Baltic Birch plywood.
The two kits I'm considering are made of MDF and use either the 5" mid-bass or 6" mid-bass W-cone woofers, along with the TC120TD5 tweeter. Both are also front-ported.
Obviously, the console is non-optimal for soundstage and imaging. It will need to sit close to a wall (hence the front-porting). The distance from speaker to listener will be about 8-9 feet. It will also be well off the center of the wall, with about 8 feet to one side of the room and 15 feet to the other. The console will necessarily be low to the ground and will not allow for imaging adjustment (unless I get really creative, but since this is my first woodworking project since junior highschool I should probably take this in moderate steps).
So, am I misguided in thinking an MTM stereo setup with modern components inside this kind of 1-piece wooden enclosure will sound good? Are there ways to take better advantage of the properties of the wood?
I've seen so many pictures of vintage consoles that have all kinds of differently sized drivers, in all kinds of combinations from tweeters to 4" midrange to 15" woofers. Some of these even have speakers on the sides or are ported anywhere from the front, to back, sides, or even bottom. Some even have external baffles that direct the sound diagonally out to the sides.
All of these were no doubt powered by tube amps with turntables and tuners, so it's a different kind of signal from the components I've got. That's why I'm thinking I should build a modern cabinet that I know to work well with my stuff. The problem is that MTMs are normally placed on stands and can be moved around for better effect. So maybe there's a better way to design for a fixed cabinet.
Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated
Thanks!
Jeff
The goals of the project are:
- To have a better-sounding system using my current equipment.
- To have a nice piece of furniture to decorate our somewhat sparse living room.
- To protect my components from our increasingly mobile and button-curious toddler.
My current setup is as follows:
- Arcam A75 solid-state, integrated amp
- "high-end" Sony CD player
- Two JMLab Chorus 706 bookshelf speakers (TM, front ported)
So, given that I like Focal components, I'm thinking about building a Focal-based MTM kit from Zalytron and basically inserting them into the console, which I'll make from furniture grade Maple or Baltic Birch plywood.
The two kits I'm considering are made of MDF and use either the 5" mid-bass or 6" mid-bass W-cone woofers, along with the TC120TD5 tweeter. Both are also front-ported.
Obviously, the console is non-optimal for soundstage and imaging. It will need to sit close to a wall (hence the front-porting). The distance from speaker to listener will be about 8-9 feet. It will also be well off the center of the wall, with about 8 feet to one side of the room and 15 feet to the other. The console will necessarily be low to the ground and will not allow for imaging adjustment (unless I get really creative, but since this is my first woodworking project since junior highschool I should probably take this in moderate steps).
So, am I misguided in thinking an MTM stereo setup with modern components inside this kind of 1-piece wooden enclosure will sound good? Are there ways to take better advantage of the properties of the wood?
I've seen so many pictures of vintage consoles that have all kinds of differently sized drivers, in all kinds of combinations from tweeters to 4" midrange to 15" woofers. Some of these even have speakers on the sides or are ported anywhere from the front, to back, sides, or even bottom. Some even have external baffles that direct the sound diagonally out to the sides.
All of these were no doubt powered by tube amps with turntables and tuners, so it's a different kind of signal from the components I've got. That's why I'm thinking I should build a modern cabinet that I know to work well with my stuff. The problem is that MTMs are normally placed on stands and can be moved around for better effect. So maybe there's a better way to design for a fixed cabinet.
Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated
Thanks!
Jeff
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If you are really cunning you could make the speakers detachable so that normally they form part of the cabinet but for special occasions when you want listen seriously or have party.
If you got a router it should be fairly easy to do with coffin locks.
Coffin lock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you got a router it should be fairly easy to do with coffin locks.
Coffin lock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thank you for these replies. I'm trying to do this on a tight budget, and the consoles for sale in my area, whenever there happen to be any, are very expensive. I could build it for a fraction of the cost (including tools like a plunge router). Plus I'm itching for a creative challenge.
I like the detachable idea. Maybe I could engineer it so they can slip in and out of the console in order to achieve the seamless exterior look I'm going for, as well as maintain the excellent damping of multiple MDF layers and a wood enclosure. Hmmmm...
I like the detachable idea. Maybe I could engineer it so they can slip in and out of the console in order to achieve the seamless exterior look I'm going for, as well as maintain the excellent damping of multiple MDF layers and a wood enclosure. Hmmmm...
Not trying to hijack this thread, but I've been fiddling with a somewhat similar idea, albeit from another angle - a console type stand for the TV. My other system is in the other end of the living room, so I've been twiddlin' with te idea of an integrated console with speakers on the side of an electronics shelf, and possibly a floor assisted small sub in the console base, if necesseary. Since I'm a sucker for concert DVDs, both rock and classical, I need a fair amount of bass response, somewhat lower than 50 Hz at least.
Dave -if that console design isn't a commercial venture, it would be interesting to see a picture, or something even better.....
Dave -if that console design isn't a commercial venture, it would be interesting to see a picture, or something even better.....
Hi,
If the speaker kits are done properly you could have issues related
to the narrow baffles the x/o's are designed for and the wide cabinet.
MTM's the tweeter really needs to be at ear height, as by their
nature an MTM's vertical response its symmetrical and worse
that an MT, (which can be tilted up or down), due to more drivers.
It appears you would have a fair amount of internal
volume per speaker, any idea how much ?
JMlab Chorus 706 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
More bass extension shouldn't be too difficult / be easy.
You may be a fan of Focal drivers but the DIYers who test
drivers aren't that particularly, especially when it comes to
being on a tight budget.
Is hard to say without further details. I've got an idea that might work ...
rgds, sreten.
If the speaker kits are done properly you could have issues related
to the narrow baffles the x/o's are designed for and the wide cabinet.
MTM's the tweeter really needs to be at ear height, as by their
nature an MTM's vertical response its symmetrical and worse
that an MT, (which can be tilted up or down), due to more drivers.
It appears you would have a fair amount of internal
volume per speaker, any idea how much ?
JMlab Chorus 706 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
More bass extension shouldn't be too difficult / be easy.
You may be a fan of Focal drivers but the DIYers who test
drivers aren't that particularly, especially when it comes to
being on a tight budget.
Is hard to say without further details. I've got an idea that might work ...
rgds, sreten.
Assuming I understand the goals of the project correctly a) good sound b) classic 50's/60's styling c) protection from curious children, then:
Maybe you could check out some of the scandinavian style that was popular in the period, which is in my opinion somewhat more graceful than North American style of the time and also fits well in modern decor. Typically these would use teak or birch (or teak/birch appearing) woods, with an oil or oil look finish, probably a blonde-ish fabric cover.
Also, see if you can work in open (or really "more open", since there are design constraints) speaker housing. A front baffle is an obvious choice, but perhaps you could consider a mini-monitor design (best imaging) closed or semi-closed (box for woofer or woofer/mid, minimal baffle for tweeter).
If mounted inside the cabinet at (or toward) the front left and right edges, perhaps protected by perforated metal with cloth cover. Consider using the same open grill cloth method on the side of the enclosure and even the back if workable; ie either an L-shaped or U-shaped perforated metal grille covered by your choice of fabric, on each side.
You may want to treat the inside wall (the centre portion of your cabinet, possibly the top and bottom of the speaker mounting area) with some kind of damping fabric, say wool felt.
This won't of course create an ideal minimonitor/stand sound field, but it might offer up some HiFi qualities that compensate somewhat for your other limiting criteria. It also offers up the option of positioning the speakers after construction and installation for best sound (ie toe-in, distance between each driver enclosure).
Try to choose overall dimensions width-wise that would allow you to place the speaker cabinets inside the main cabinet at 1/2 to 1/4 the expected listening distance. The best centre image will be somewhere in that range, combined with some/none toe-in.
You've got plenty of room to incorporate a sub with this design, which would also go a long way to counter the design limits you're placing on yourself. In fact since there should be a fairly good Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) you probably have more design freedom to exploit there than many sub enclosure designs assume.
I'm not a fan of the somewhat flimsy angled round wood legs typical of the systems of the era (and as shown in your example photo). However, you can definitely make the look more modern and side benefit more solid by exploring a more closed approach, broadly similar to, say, kitchen base cabinets.
Alternately if you want air underneath the system (and this would not hurt the imaging one bit) then perhaps some more sturdy aluminum or metal round supports. Maybe Ikea has an off-the shelf part you could incorporate.
This looks like a fun project; working through strict design constraints to me is challenging and rewarding.
Regardless of how you end up approaching this, do keep us up to date.
Maybe you could check out some of the scandinavian style that was popular in the period, which is in my opinion somewhat more graceful than North American style of the time and also fits well in modern decor. Typically these would use teak or birch (or teak/birch appearing) woods, with an oil or oil look finish, probably a blonde-ish fabric cover.
Also, see if you can work in open (or really "more open", since there are design constraints) speaker housing. A front baffle is an obvious choice, but perhaps you could consider a mini-monitor design (best imaging) closed or semi-closed (box for woofer or woofer/mid, minimal baffle for tweeter).
If mounted inside the cabinet at (or toward) the front left and right edges, perhaps protected by perforated metal with cloth cover. Consider using the same open grill cloth method on the side of the enclosure and even the back if workable; ie either an L-shaped or U-shaped perforated metal grille covered by your choice of fabric, on each side.
You may want to treat the inside wall (the centre portion of your cabinet, possibly the top and bottom of the speaker mounting area) with some kind of damping fabric, say wool felt.
This won't of course create an ideal minimonitor/stand sound field, but it might offer up some HiFi qualities that compensate somewhat for your other limiting criteria. It also offers up the option of positioning the speakers after construction and installation for best sound (ie toe-in, distance between each driver enclosure).
Try to choose overall dimensions width-wise that would allow you to place the speaker cabinets inside the main cabinet at 1/2 to 1/4 the expected listening distance. The best centre image will be somewhere in that range, combined with some/none toe-in.
You've got plenty of room to incorporate a sub with this design, which would also go a long way to counter the design limits you're placing on yourself. In fact since there should be a fairly good Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) you probably have more design freedom to exploit there than many sub enclosure designs assume.
I'm not a fan of the somewhat flimsy angled round wood legs typical of the systems of the era (and as shown in your example photo). However, you can definitely make the look more modern and side benefit more solid by exploring a more closed approach, broadly similar to, say, kitchen base cabinets.
Alternately if you want air underneath the system (and this would not hurt the imaging one bit) then perhaps some more sturdy aluminum or metal round supports. Maybe Ikea has an off-the shelf part you could incorporate.
This looks like a fun project; working through strict design constraints to me is challenging and rewarding.
Regardless of how you end up approaching this, do keep us up to date.
Nice pic Jeff.
Consolidation:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/146591-custom-console-stereo-turntable-design.html
Hi-Fi Console Info, Lack of- - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Console Hi-Fi Record & Radios: Telefunken: Hymnus 5328 MX
PITS HiFi/TV console : lorbus
Introducing the all new OLA 8137 Contemporary TV Cabinet | Furniture | Harry Saini
retro vintage modern hi-fi: Retro Hi-Fi Girl Friday
La Boite Concept LD120 | Geek&Hype
LD 130, le Dock format bureau | Dock-iPhone.com (pic)
La Boite concept - LD 120 - YouTube
Top 10 geeky home furniture pieces
Consolidation:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/146591-custom-console-stereo-turntable-design.html
Hi-Fi Console Info, Lack of- - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Console Hi-Fi Record & Radios: Telefunken: Hymnus 5328 MX
PITS HiFi/TV console : lorbus
Introducing the all new OLA 8137 Contemporary TV Cabinet | Furniture | Harry Saini
retro vintage modern hi-fi: Retro Hi-Fi Girl Friday
La Boite Concept LD120 | Geek&Hype
LD 130, le Dock format bureau | Dock-iPhone.com (pic)
La Boite concept - LD 120 - YouTube
Top 10 geeky home furniture pieces
Attachments
Well, I used that picture just to give a rough idea of what the general style would look like: a long credenza-like piece of furniture with two large speakers covered by old fashioned grill cloth. I don't want to use wooden stiletto legs. Rather, I'm thinking of 4" steel hairpin legs to screw into the bottom. They are strong and can be ordered inexpensively online.
The first design I've come up with is 55" long by 30" tall by about 21" deep. With the 4" metal legs the whole thing would stand 34" tall. Here's what it looks like on paper:
What I'm thinking of doing is building a pair of Aria 6 MTM speakers from Zalytron (click here for the plan) and basically inserting them into the console. The Aria 6 has a total volume of 2 cubic feet, uses .75" MDF all the way around, and is lined with Black Hole for dampening. The exterior dimensions are 27" tall x 11" wide x 18.5" deep. Since this is my first DIY speaker project, the Zalytron design is attractive to me because the components and cross-overs have already been created and tested by people who know what they're doing.
I'm also thinking that the large console format gives me some freedoms in terms of the crossovers. If I made the console 21" deep, I could place the crossovers and terminal cups outside the speaker cabinets, say by drilling a small hole for the driver/tweeter wires to pass through and caulking it at both ends. I could also route the wires under the Black Hole. That way there'd be more Black Hole to absorb internal sound and I'd have easier access to the electrics if need be.
If I add two additional layers of MDF on the sides and another one or two on the top, bottom, and back, I could really deaden them, and they'd still fit within the dimensions of the console (I might have to alter it a little, but you catch my drift).
Tonight I measured the expected distance from the speakers to the listener at about 102". So if the whole piece is about 55"-60" long, the speakers would be set about 50" apart. That's probably about the best they can be imaged in this sort of design.
But as Sreten suggests, that might be too low for an MTM to sound good. I'll look into the open or semi-open designs to see if anything sticks out at me.
I don't know. If I'm going to spend that much money on good components, maybe it'd be better to build some proper speakers, like the Capriccio 7 TMM floor standing model, with a matching wooden storage rack between them. That would furnish our room nicely, too, and I could set the speakers where they sound best. That would also leave more wiggle room for expanding to a tube amp and turn table down the road, which I very much want to do.
Anyway, thanks, Inductor, for all those links. They're great!
The first design I've come up with is 55" long by 30" tall by about 21" deep. With the 4" metal legs the whole thing would stand 34" tall. Here's what it looks like on paper:
What I'm thinking of doing is building a pair of Aria 6 MTM speakers from Zalytron (click here for the plan) and basically inserting them into the console. The Aria 6 has a total volume of 2 cubic feet, uses .75" MDF all the way around, and is lined with Black Hole for dampening. The exterior dimensions are 27" tall x 11" wide x 18.5" deep. Since this is my first DIY speaker project, the Zalytron design is attractive to me because the components and cross-overs have already been created and tested by people who know what they're doing.
I'm also thinking that the large console format gives me some freedoms in terms of the crossovers. If I made the console 21" deep, I could place the crossovers and terminal cups outside the speaker cabinets, say by drilling a small hole for the driver/tweeter wires to pass through and caulking it at both ends. I could also route the wires under the Black Hole. That way there'd be more Black Hole to absorb internal sound and I'd have easier access to the electrics if need be.
If I add two additional layers of MDF on the sides and another one or two on the top, bottom, and back, I could really deaden them, and they'd still fit within the dimensions of the console (I might have to alter it a little, but you catch my drift).
Tonight I measured the expected distance from the speakers to the listener at about 102". So if the whole piece is about 55"-60" long, the speakers would be set about 50" apart. That's probably about the best they can be imaged in this sort of design.
But as Sreten suggests, that might be too low for an MTM to sound good. I'll look into the open or semi-open designs to see if anything sticks out at me.
I don't know. If I'm going to spend that much money on good components, maybe it'd be better to build some proper speakers, like the Capriccio 7 TMM floor standing model, with a matching wooden storage rack between them. That would furnish our room nicely, too, and I could set the speakers where they sound best. That would also leave more wiggle room for expanding to a tube amp and turn table down the road, which I very much want to do.
Anyway, thanks, Inductor, for all those links. They're great!
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That's a nice project. Maybe you could find some inspiration with this monument :
More seriously, if you want to try something simpler, please consider this thread, about stereo from a single cabinet. I think it could work already well with three (or more) good full rangers and a radial double VC sub. Keep them front firing as in your original idea.
The advantage of this set up in a console is that you can control very simply the depth of the soundstage by a network in serie with the central element. You could even add a couple of tweeters, but side firing this time...
More seriously, if you want to try something simpler, please consider this thread, about stereo from a single cabinet. I think it could work already well with three (or more) good full rangers and a radial double VC sub. Keep them front firing as in your original idea.
The advantage of this set up in a console is that you can control very simply the depth of the soundstage by a network in serie with the central element. You could even add a couple of tweeters, but side firing this time...
Last edited:
Hi,
A narrow MTM design isn't going to work very well at all, AFAICS.
Read about the ZDC3 way centre channel version of the ZST3.5 :
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
You'll have to be creative with the bafffle layout, something like
the attachment shown (for the left channel). 2 cuft is the right
volume for a vented box that will go deep.
Note in particular the designs listening axis is 12" above the
tweeter, and how easy it is to make subtle adjustments to
the midrange and tweeter levels.
YMMV, but in terms of a "hifi" type speaker its got more
chance of working well as its more suitable for purpose.
High quality for the price drivers and an excellent x/o.
rgds, sreten.
A narrow MTM design isn't going to work very well at all, AFAICS.
Read about the ZDC3 way centre channel version of the ZST3.5 :
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
You'll have to be creative with the bafffle layout, something like
the attachment shown (for the left channel). 2 cuft is the right
volume for a vented box that will go deep.
Note in particular the designs listening axis is 12" above the
tweeter, and how easy it is to make subtle adjustments to
the midrange and tweeter levels.
YMMV, but in terms of a "hifi" type speaker its got more
chance of working well as its more suitable for purpose.
High quality for the price drivers and an excellent x/o.
rgds, sreten.
Attachments
For stereo reproduction, six feet (1.8 meters) between the speakers is a minimum, I think. Maybe you could get away with as little as four feet, but probably then imaging is not so good.
Anyway, my thought was that you might put one of the speakers on wheels so that it could be rolled out away to give the needed separation between the speakers when listening to music and moved back into a recess of the console when the stereo system isn't being used.
Just a thought, for what it's worth.
-Pete
Anyway, my thought was that you might put one of the speakers on wheels so that it could be rolled out away to give the needed separation between the speakers when listening to music and moved back into a recess of the console when the stereo system isn't being used.
Just a thought, for what it's worth.
-Pete
Radugazon: That console reminds of Boccioni's cubist sculpture "Development of a Bottle in Space" (1912):
Sreten: I'm liking this 3 or 3.5 channel, multi-driver idea. All of the Dayton components together would cost a fraction of the Focal ones for an MTM. I'm going to look further into front baffle arrangements for "spreading" sound for a good image, as well as cabinet volume and internal structure. I need to start learning how to read all those performance graphs, too.
I'm wondering what is meant by the "axis of listening" being 12 inches above the tweeter. Does that mean it travels in a straight line, parallel to the floor, a foot above the tweeter's location in the baffle? Or does the direction of sound travel up at angle from the tweeter such that it rises about a foot where it meets the listener?
And Pete, I appreciate the suggestion for a rollaway cabinet. I'm thinking it shouldn't be too difficult to make removable cabinets for serious listening. Definitely worth thinking through all options right now.
Jeff
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sreten: I'm liking this 3 or 3.5 channel, multi-driver idea. All of the Dayton components together would cost a fraction of the Focal ones for an MTM. I'm going to look further into front baffle arrangements for "spreading" sound for a good image, as well as cabinet volume and internal structure. I need to start learning how to read all those performance graphs, too.
I'm wondering what is meant by the "axis of listening" being 12 inches above the tweeter. Does that mean it travels in a straight line, parallel to the floor, a foot above the tweeter's location in the baffle? Or does the direction of sound travel up at angle from the tweeter such that it rises about a foot where it meets the listener?
And Pete, I appreciate the suggestion for a rollaway cabinet. I'm thinking it shouldn't be too difficult to make removable cabinets for serious listening. Definitely worth thinking through all options right now.
Jeff
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Hi,
It means the optimum listening height is 12" above the tweeter,
@ 2m. Nothing more nothing less. The response varies with height.
You clearly want a design with a good above nominal axis response.
A centre channel below a screen fits that description, its vertical
response variations are optimised to above rather than on axis.
rgds, sreten.
Jdrouin, that's a good find. But cubist style lets too much sharp edges, that's bad for diffraction. Maybe we could imagine what Gaudi would have done of this with his Art Nouveau rounded fashion.
For the console topic (no intended critic, just friendly), I have the feeling that the contributors see this as two standflooder speakers stuck in a credenza...maybe better to see this as a whole system as I said earlier. It's an occasion to think differently.
For the console topic (no intended critic, just friendly), I have the feeling that the contributors see this as two standflooder speakers stuck in a credenza...maybe better to see this as a whole system as I said earlier. It's an occasion to think differently.
Another thought that I had is that a console-type stereo system really lends itself to a sub-woofer/ satellite configuration. Not speaking from experience, but Rod Elliot (ESP Sound) has said that the ideal position for a sub-woofer in the satellite/ subwoofer set-up is centered between the left and right channel speakers. So the console is ideal for containing a sub-woofer. Also, generally there is leftover space in a console, so being able to fit a sub-woofer in a console will usually not be a problem.
Regards,
Pete
Regards,
Pete
OK, so if I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that one approach might be to modify the Zaph ZDC3 3-way center channel design into left and right channels within the console? The idea being that the above nominal axis response would compensate for the relatively low stance of the console?
Jeff
I'd also go for a subwoofer satellite setup. Ideally a sub (or woofs) is between the satellites.
Everything has to be in the console ?
You should be able to get a console under $75, gut it, rebuild inside, etc.
See the gemme audio phenix
Gemme Audio Phenix | Stereophile.com
Norman
Everything has to be in the console ?
You should be able to get a console under $75, gut it, rebuild inside, etc.
See the gemme audio phenix
Gemme Audio Phenix | Stereophile.com
Norman
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