I would move towards a more futuristic design, a box is sooo boooooring !
Since waveguides has been mentioned , a round shape like oval or circle could be the starting point . But also Sreten's advice for a modified center channel is interesting , as knowing what and where the sound produced will be addressed , is very important .
But , this brings also to consider total power of the thing , because the more , not the merrier : more interactions ,vibrations ,ecc ecc . Maybe something a little bit more than an I pod dock !?
Since waveguides has been mentioned , a round shape like oval or circle could be the starting point . But also Sreten's advice for a modified center channel is interesting , as knowing what and where the sound produced will be addressed , is very important .
But , this brings also to consider total power of the thing , because the more , not the merrier : more interactions ,vibrations ,ecc ecc . Maybe something a little bit more than an I pod dock !?
Wow, what a lot of great responses since I last checked in. There are too many of you to thank individually, so I'll just give you all a blanket "thanks!"
The purpose of the console system, since several of you asked, is twofold: I want an enjoyable, warm, "big" sound for casual listening (i.e. when I'm puttering about the house or entertaining guests), and a good soundstage/image for critical listening when I sit on the sofa in front of it.
Now, when I say "good," I probably mean something lesser than what is meant by some of the more obsessive audiophiles on this board. The accoustics of the living room are not good enough to merit spending the time and money on an impeccably designed system with a subwoofer or satellites, although I very much appreciate those suggestions.
My frame of reference is my friend's system. He at one point had the same amplifier that I do, an Arcam A75 integrated solid state, with two JMLab Electra 905 MTM monitors on stands. Once the speakers broke in and he got the imaging just right, I was introduced to a whole new world of sound that I could never have imagined. When we listened to Black Sabbath, it was like eating steak. When we listened to Beethoven, you could hear the depth of the music hall and the spatial locations of all the instruments, and it gave you sense of what it must be like to have a German soul.
Then he procured a Wright monoblock tube amp and a turntable, and the experience of listening to vinyl (through the Electra 905s) made me want to trash my CD collection.
Alas, I do not have the kind of income or free time (or spouse) that would support the promiscuous sampling of equipment that many audiophiles seem to enjoy so much. When I buy something (or make something), I tend to keep it for ever. That's why I try to get it right (or right enough) the first time around, and my musical instrument collection is a testament to that.
So, since we need to furnish our living room (which by the way has no TV: music is the core focus), and since it's not very large, I was thinking of making a self-contained console that would sound awesome, and perform well for a long time to come.
For the first time in a while (several years, now that I think of it), I spent some time listening critically to my JMLab Chorus 706 bookshelf monitors (TM, front ported, titanium inverted dome tweeter, 6" polyglass midbass woofer). After thinking about some of the advice in this thread, I placed them so that the speakers are 6' apart on the centers, brought them forward from the wall a bit, and set the tweeters just at ear height when I'm sitting on the sofa. (They had previously been casually placed about 5' apart, or slightly less). I also adjusted to the toe-in to get the best effect that I could. Then I listened to a variety of music and was reminded of what I initially liked and felt was lacking when I first purchased these speakers.
They do well at representing the human voice, classical instruments, and rock instruments, especially in isolation. Jazz also sounds good (i.e. Miles Davis' "Sketches of Spain"), though I'm wanting to hear more bass. High pitch percussion is also very good. But they lack bass depth and accuracy, and lose a lot of clarity when orchestration and/or volume level becomes complex and intense. For instance, during a crescendo in pieces by Amy Winehouse or even a classic rock band like The Cars, the speakers really seem to hold back and you lose the emotional effect of the music.
What do I want this system to do? That's a rather tall order, but sreten has given me faith that I can pull it off.
I want to hear effortless bass volume and articulation when I listen to jazzlike hip-hop (i.e. Digable Planets). I want to hear the full impact of Amy Winehouse's background singers and all the neat little instrumentation that happens in the corners. I want Beethoven and Schubert to sprawl themselves out and occupy the whole room with their soundstage.
In a year or two, once I have a little more cash at hand, I plan to pick up a not-too-expensive tube amp (probably a Dynaco Stereo 70) and a turntable so I can listen to vinyl. And I want my system to sing that big, warm tube sound so I can hear Elvis or Bill Monroe or whoever in all their glory.
Now, is a console design going to do this as well as properly placed MTM/stands or floorstanding speakers? Probably not. But if it can get pretty close, I'll be very, very happy.
I'm still undecided, though. Part of me is thinking, 'Why not just build floor standing cabinets or a nice MTM setup, since they'll be just as good for casual or critical listening,' but the other part is thinking, 'How *COOL* would it be to put together a really sweet sounding console that makes people say, "Wha?"'
Jeff
The purpose of the console system, since several of you asked, is twofold: I want an enjoyable, warm, "big" sound for casual listening (i.e. when I'm puttering about the house or entertaining guests), and a good soundstage/image for critical listening when I sit on the sofa in front of it.
Now, when I say "good," I probably mean something lesser than what is meant by some of the more obsessive audiophiles on this board. The accoustics of the living room are not good enough to merit spending the time and money on an impeccably designed system with a subwoofer or satellites, although I very much appreciate those suggestions.
My frame of reference is my friend's system. He at one point had the same amplifier that I do, an Arcam A75 integrated solid state, with two JMLab Electra 905 MTM monitors on stands. Once the speakers broke in and he got the imaging just right, I was introduced to a whole new world of sound that I could never have imagined. When we listened to Black Sabbath, it was like eating steak. When we listened to Beethoven, you could hear the depth of the music hall and the spatial locations of all the instruments, and it gave you sense of what it must be like to have a German soul.
Then he procured a Wright monoblock tube amp and a turntable, and the experience of listening to vinyl (through the Electra 905s) made me want to trash my CD collection.
Alas, I do not have the kind of income or free time (or spouse) that would support the promiscuous sampling of equipment that many audiophiles seem to enjoy so much. When I buy something (or make something), I tend to keep it for ever. That's why I try to get it right (or right enough) the first time around, and my musical instrument collection is a testament to that.
So, since we need to furnish our living room (which by the way has no TV: music is the core focus), and since it's not very large, I was thinking of making a self-contained console that would sound awesome, and perform well for a long time to come.
For the first time in a while (several years, now that I think of it), I spent some time listening critically to my JMLab Chorus 706 bookshelf monitors (TM, front ported, titanium inverted dome tweeter, 6" polyglass midbass woofer). After thinking about some of the advice in this thread, I placed them so that the speakers are 6' apart on the centers, brought them forward from the wall a bit, and set the tweeters just at ear height when I'm sitting on the sofa. (They had previously been casually placed about 5' apart, or slightly less). I also adjusted to the toe-in to get the best effect that I could. Then I listened to a variety of music and was reminded of what I initially liked and felt was lacking when I first purchased these speakers.
They do well at representing the human voice, classical instruments, and rock instruments, especially in isolation. Jazz also sounds good (i.e. Miles Davis' "Sketches of Spain"), though I'm wanting to hear more bass. High pitch percussion is also very good. But they lack bass depth and accuracy, and lose a lot of clarity when orchestration and/or volume level becomes complex and intense. For instance, during a crescendo in pieces by Amy Winehouse or even a classic rock band like The Cars, the speakers really seem to hold back and you lose the emotional effect of the music.
What do I want this system to do? That's a rather tall order, but sreten has given me faith that I can pull it off.
I want to hear effortless bass volume and articulation when I listen to jazzlike hip-hop (i.e. Digable Planets). I want to hear the full impact of Amy Winehouse's background singers and all the neat little instrumentation that happens in the corners. I want Beethoven and Schubert to sprawl themselves out and occupy the whole room with their soundstage.
In a year or two, once I have a little more cash at hand, I plan to pick up a not-too-expensive tube amp (probably a Dynaco Stereo 70) and a turntable so I can listen to vinyl. And I want my system to sing that big, warm tube sound so I can hear Elvis or Bill Monroe or whoever in all their glory.
Now, is a console design going to do this as well as properly placed MTM/stands or floorstanding speakers? Probably not. But if it can get pretty close, I'll be very, very happy.
I'm still undecided, though. Part of me is thinking, 'Why not just build floor standing cabinets or a nice MTM setup, since they'll be just as good for casual or critical listening,' but the other part is thinking, 'How *COOL* would it be to put together a really sweet sounding console that makes people say, "Wha?"'
Jeff
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Hi,
The A75 has a decent phono stage and pre-outs for another power amp.
So you could bi-amp with a valve amp used for the mid and treble.
(Roll off low bass by reducing its input coupling capacitor value.)
However getting a turntable to work well inside a console is a tricky business,
and the turntable housing / isolation would need to be part of the original
design, not an afterthought.
rgds, sreten.
The A75 has a decent phono stage and pre-outs for another power amp.
So you could bi-amp with a valve amp used for the mid and treble.
(Roll off low bass by reducing its input coupling capacitor value.)
However getting a turntable to work well inside a console is a tricky business,
and the turntable housing / isolation would need to be part of the original
design, not an afterthought.
rgds, sreten.
This is something I was always curious about i.e. how the console manufacturers were able to build turntables that didn't exhibit audible feedback (at least the ones I have listened to). Though the first thing that comes to mind is the use of those heavy ceramic cartridges, but I have seen (but not heard) better and more modern consoles equipped with magnetic carts, of the moving magnet variety I'm sure.
Maybe all it takes is a few carefully tuned springs supporting a shelf under his turntable?
For ideas, here's a video someone put together w/scans of a 1972 Magnavox console catalog, with an interesting choice of music!
Hi,
Yes, that is all it takes to prevent catastrophic feedback, but its not
really enough for high quality / feedback not to be a lower level issue.
One way is to look for a table being sold cheap because it has no lid.
Build a sturdy box with a flip lid that seals with felt all around the top.
Extend the top forwards and backwards to the depth of the console.
Arrange it so this box sitting in the console the lid is flush with the top.
Mount the box on springs balanced with the fitted turntable. Make
sure the box is clear of all console parts by at least 5mm.
The turntable sits in this box and can be a type with fairly rudimentary
suspension. A reversal of the situation is to use a turntable with an
advanced suspension, i.e. a suspended type. Here you would just
stand the sealing box on top of a shelf with a layer of spongy /
rubbery foam for decoupling that doesn't upset the suspension.
There are other possibilities depending on what turntable bits you have.
rgds, sreten.
And your floor .... suspended floors can cause havoc with spring suspensions.
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free
That's what I'm doing for our TV/FM tuner set up; a free 60's Fisher console that had a 10 inch three way driven by the least of their early transistor receivers. I'll substitute an EPI module that's in my way and maybe a sub maybe not. I don't find the audio track to be the best part of modern cinema. In fact it's the second worst part, after the stupidity.
That's what I'm doing for our TV/FM tuner set up; a free 60's Fisher console that had a 10 inch three way driven by the least of their early transistor receivers. I'll substitute an EPI module that's in my way and maybe a sub maybe not. I don't find the audio track to be the best part of modern cinema. In fact it's the second worst part, after the stupidity.
I'm afraid that an expert of the loudspeaker field , which is basically a double spring with some handycap
can accept that a system suffers from subtle or gross interpolations made by vibrations , which should be stopped and avoided firmly . One-in-all doesn't work . We should pursue for the best in Sound reproduction , WAF and older piece of furniture design shouldn't keep us to reach the goal -which is-often- only theoric ....
If achiveving sonic perfection was the goal for every device intended for music playback we would not have:I'm afraid that an expert of the loudspeaker field , which is basically a double spring with some handycap
* under-cabinet CD players for music while cooking
* portable iPod boomboxes for listening to music while enjoying a sunset seated next to a duck-filled pond
* quite good audio quality in a room intended for other purposes besides a perfectly configured audio system, for example a living room, so we can enjoy music as a group while visiting old friends & dipping chunks of bread into a pot of tasty gooey cheese, or playing with our kids & the dog while exposing them to the art of Stravinsky, Mrs. Fitzgerald or Ian MacKaye.
There's a time and place for excellent audio reproduction, but IMO not EVERY time and not EVERY place.
I understand . Industry surely understand and knows how to make profit of it .
But they aren't to retire their products from the market if a client is dissatisfied ,like some cars having problems .
And you are absolutely right by bringing those examples : in all those cases the listener briefly pays attention to the music played ,but if you do , the first moment of an mp3 will reveal the errors made ..ok ,mp3 is lossy
ok ,let's talk about localization and physical structure of the boxes demanded to spread the sound , and the ( high ) possibility to catch and put in circle in (side) the system some errors ,which mostly are due to vibrations and bad or no isolation . Those may be very subtle , but even a 0.00000000000001 %
may ruin the 100 %. It's there , are you (your mind unconsciously ) neglecting it ? So you won't pay attention to it ,just remove it
But they aren't to retire their products from the market if a client is dissatisfied ,like some cars having problems .
And you are absolutely right by bringing those examples : in all those cases the listener briefly pays attention to the music played ,but if you do , the first moment of an mp3 will reveal the errors made ..ok ,mp3 is lossy
ok ,let's talk about localization and physical structure of the boxes demanded to spread the sound , and the ( high ) possibility to catch and put in circle in (side) the system some errors ,which mostly are due to vibrations and bad or no isolation . Those may be very subtle , but even a 0.00000000000001 %
may ruin the 100 %. It's there , are you (your mind unconsciously ) neglecting it ? So you won't pay attention to it ,just remove it
Within limits, I think the human mind is very good at removing unwanted sounds (THD, MP3 compression artifacts, etc) from music so we can still enjoy it. Which is why a $20 table radio can still cause many people to tap their foot or get up and dance.
"The perfect is the enemy of the very good" (Voltaire?)
"The perfect is the enemy of the very good" (Voltaire?)
If your wife doesn't support you in your hobbies, then you've got marital problems that are beyond the scope of this message board. If you can't find a way to engage her in this process, then she will feel excluded and probably automatically reject the project. If she's not willing to negotiate on this, then you've got bigger problems than I want to talk about.
If you have no furniture in your living room, then anything you put in there will sound like crap. Wait until the room is furnished before messing around with hifi.
I also think your expectations for this system are far too high and unreasonable. You can do it, no problem, just don't expect really great quality.
ask for her opinion. Put on her favorite music and have her input when doing changes. You'd be surprised how well she can hear her own music. Let her pick out the cabinet.
My vote is for you to find a large console (like 4' wide) and gut it. So long as it is in great shape, I'd go up to $200. Woodwork, finish, stain and the such take time and money. You can even get a tube one and bring the guts somewhere and it can be repaired.
Be careful about getting a music room just for you (no tv). She may never step foot in it. Man caves can be very separatist. To me it is better to have a huge room where everything is (music, tv).
Norman
My vote is for you to find a large console (like 4' wide) and gut it. So long as it is in great shape, I'd go up to $200. Woodwork, finish, stain and the such take time and money. You can even get a tube one and bring the guts somewhere and it can be repaired.
Be careful about getting a music room just for you (no tv). She may never step foot in it. Man caves can be very separatist. To me it is better to have a huge room where everything is (music, tv).
Norman
Oh yeah I agree. Many young women want everything to match, so if he is going to make something for the show off room of the house, it had better look like it belongs there. I try to make stuff in a way that my wife likes, and that it goes with the other stuff in the room. So, the first step in my opinion is to ask her if she wants the hifi to match the rest of the furniture in the room. My bet is that she'd say yes, so unless you are a highly skilled woodworker, it may not be possible to exactly match the rest of the stuff that is there. You've chosen Mid Century Modern as the console style you like, but is that what is there in the rest of the room and is it your wife's favorite style?
Once the style is established, then ask her how big are you allowed to make this thing. Get cardboard boxes or something so she can "see" it. Women generally don't have our ability to see 3D shapes in their heads, so they need to see it in front of them before they can decide. So, obviously you want the biggest box you can get away with for the console. I would not go for the one you showed because all that space from the bottom to the floor is wasted. You could fit a subwoofer in the space you have for the legs!
So, once you figured out the style and the size together, then she probably doesn't care about the specifics and that's where you get to play. Just make sure she can turn it on easily.... none of this "turn this one on first, then this one... then you have to flip this other switch.... " Just one big red switch is best.
These are my techniques, so maybe they are some use to you or other people.
My first thought is, "What a pain to run the vacuum under there!" (I'm thinking back in the day, Danish Modern was popular with people that had maids.)
I think Dirk's right on target. One question you might pose, "Given that you already have a suitable couch in the room, would you rather have another couch or two large chairs?" That is, one 8' long piece of furniture is a bit of a decorating nightmare. I could see building two half-consoles, perhaps with electronics in the top of one, and CD storage in the top of the other, but double check the concept of lift tops - you can't put anything on them, and that empty flat horizontal surface will just sit there, staring, begging for a lamp, plant, or knick-knacks.
Going back to the beginning questions, I'm not sure the benefits of an MTM array are realised when the axis is below ear level.
Whoah! I didn't mean to ignite a discussion of marital processes. I was simply indicating that the project needs to be considered carefully before it's built because I don't have the interest (nor does my wife have the patience) for constant equipment swapping to get the hi-fi sound just right. I (we) want to make sure it's done well from the start.
Of course she is involved in the decision-making process. It's not for a man-cave (I've got one of those above the garage), but for a room we all spend a lot of time in. We just prefer the TV to be in the den, which is deeper in the house. The living room is more of a public-facing one, so the stereo and related furniture would double as show-pieces.
I'm now leaning toward building two Zaph ZDT3.5 towers with a narrower variation on my console design (i.e. 30" x 30") for the storage cabinet between them. Recently I played around with the imaging on my small bookshelf speakers and have been enjoying them so much. I'd rather go for a configurable and superior sound quality than the "show" factor of an invented 1-piece console, which would be a headache in terms of cabinet design. My bride is on board and we've been discussing veneer colors.
Of course she is involved in the decision-making process. It's not for a man-cave (I've got one of those above the garage), but for a room we all spend a lot of time in. We just prefer the TV to be in the den, which is deeper in the house. The living room is more of a public-facing one, so the stereo and related furniture would double as show-pieces.
I'm now leaning toward building two Zaph ZDT3.5 towers with a narrower variation on my console design (i.e. 30" x 30") for the storage cabinet between them. Recently I played around with the imaging on my small bookshelf speakers and have been enjoying them so much. I'd rather go for a configurable and superior sound quality than the "show" factor of an invented 1-piece console, which would be a headache in terms of cabinet design. My bride is on board and we've been discussing veneer colors.
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