Has anyone here used paper cone tweeters in a modern "serious" project? Im thinking of trying it with the galaxy 5" pro driver. I have it running wide range form 600hz up and it sounds very nice and cohesive through the whole range.
I dont know if this is because of the lack of crossover or the fact that the same cone is producing highs and mids so that the tone or colour is the same. I figure I should try a paper cone tweeter to get better dispersion and test the theory.
Can anyone recommend a decent one, that is still being produced?
I dont know if this is because of the lack of crossover or the fact that the same cone is producing highs and mids so that the tone or colour is the same. I figure I should try a paper cone tweeter to get better dispersion and test the theory.
Can anyone recommend a decent one, that is still being produced?
You could try this clone of the so-called phenolic ring cone tweeter, originally built by CTS (now out of business IIRC), and which was used on many different speakers, from budget to nice mid-fi gear, until around the mid 90s or so:
phenolic ring tweeter
This is the "upscale" version of that tweeter, which uses the larger voice coil and heavier magnet. Later versions could also include ferrofluid in the v.c. gap. Too bad this one didn't use the black phenolic ring.
I've heard the original many times at various price points, and even the lesser versions could sound decent, or to put it another way, while they aren't the height of accuracy and resolution they didn't irritate my hearing system like so many inexpensive dome tweeters can (in other words, a sin of omission rather than a sin of commission).
phenolic ring tweeter
This is the "upscale" version of that tweeter, which uses the larger voice coil and heavier magnet. Later versions could also include ferrofluid in the v.c. gap. Too bad this one didn't use the black phenolic ring.
I've heard the original many times at various price points, and even the lesser versions could sound decent, or to put it another way, while they aren't the height of accuracy and resolution they didn't irritate my hearing system like so many inexpensive dome tweeters can (in other words, a sin of omission rather than a sin of commission).
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It requires a pro tweeter that's my understanding. The Faital Pro 3FE20 series - 91 dB family is a good bet.
http://www.faitalpro.com/news/detail.php?idnews=60
Faital Pro 3FE22 FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
Faital Pro 3FE25 FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
Boutique haut parleurs et audio DIY
Haut-parleur Faital Pro 3FE20
More:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...3fe20-anyone-here-try-interesting-driver.html
Tang Band W2-852SH 2"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-808
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I made a couple pairs of the lil brits linked above. (I added a zobel to the woofer) The paper tweeter is actually pretty nice. Very present, without being irritating. A friend I had over to show them to asked if I was playing specific tracks to show them off -- I was not. I was surprised how good they are. I forget just where they were crossed, highish I think. 1st order.
Goldwood GT-25 4" Cone Tweeter 270-018
Goldwood GT-25 4" Cone Tweeter 270-018
The only aspect that puts me off on these is their diameter of four inches i.e. don't they exhibit a massive beaming tendency?
When I still owned my pair of original Baby Advents, their 1.75" cone tweeter was pretty directional, though otherwise they were smooth/non-fatiguing.
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They're 4" from the outside of the metal frame. From the inside of the suspension the diameter is about 2 and 3/4" -ish.
I came to them from running a pair of 6 1/2" fostex full range, so they don't seem very directional to me. They are more so than a dome, I'm sure. I think I recall the lil brit designer talking about how their directionality lets them integrate better with a high cross on a woofer, as the woofer will be pretty directional by then as well.
I was a little tired of how directional my fostex drivers were. These aren't as bad.
I came to them from running a pair of 6 1/2" fostex full range, so they don't seem very directional to me. They are more so than a dome, I'm sure. I think I recall the lil brit designer talking about how their directionality lets them integrate better with a high cross on a woofer, as the woofer will be pretty directional by then as well.
I was a little tired of how directional my fostex drivers were. These aren't as bad.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
JAMO 20132 2" Paper Cone Tweeter 299-965
Hi,
For $2 (down from $12) a pop from PE I suspect these are pretty good.
You've got to like the six dimples, at least they are trying ......
Dispersion will be better than a 1" dome ......
What you you need is something good and cheap to go with them e.g:
Aurasound NS525-255-8A 5.25" Paper Cone 8 Ohm: Madisound Speaker Store
rgds, sreten.
Could be fun.
You should know how that CTS unit was originally used to get the best out of it. Here's the Acoustic Research AR-4x crossover with the vital 15 ohm adjustable attenuator which must have had a smoothing effect on the response:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
About | The Classic Speaker Pages
It was crossed over at an alarmingly low 1kHz originally, though AR used a much smaller 4uF capacitor in the three-way AR-2A. I'd think 4uF or smaller with your little fullrange unit. The bass inductor is optional, I'd reckon. Probably working more as bafflestep correction than anything.
AR(Acoustic Research) AR-4x
The CTS must have been incredibly robust. I don't think many modern tweeters could crossover at 1kHz on a single cap!
Attachments
WLM La scala comes to mind:
I believe they are using modified Visaton speakers.
6moons audio reviews: WLM La Scala
I believe they are using modified Visaton speakers.
6moons audio reviews: WLM La Scala
That's very interesting, jacozz. There's definitely some secret sauce in those old paper cone designs. I'm always amazed at the deceptive simplicity of those acoustic suspension AR designs. In fact the whole thing is beautifully optimised. Even the bass cone profile and cabinet damping. The later designs like the AR-4x doesn't work too well with a valve amp anecdotally, but with a good transistor design just goes louder and louder WITHOUT distortion.
The older designs like AR-3 are interesting too. The simple midrange crossover seems to work with the midrange units inductance to roll off correctly. Very musical sound IMO.
The CTS must have been incredibly robust. I don't think many modern tweeters could crossover at 1kHz on a single cap!
And from what I hear, that generation of AR speakers could get loud without losing it. Impressive.
Nice to see a commercial product going down the same path. Makes me feel slightly less insane about shelving my expensive domes to try paper cones.
I agree with most of the subjective impressions I read in that review regarding paper tweeters reproducing upper frequencies - some resolution is lost compared to domes but so is the harshness. And the sound is more dynamic.
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It seems Troels Gravesen is a bit of a fan of the paper tweeter as well: JBL LE26 tweeter-
Agree with the above. And these points as well:
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Seems the WLM La Scala uses an incredibly unsophisticated Visaton 2" cone tweeter.
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
The Visaton 4" midrange looks fun too:
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Simple single capacitor and resistor crossover. £10 a pop, what ya got to lose!
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
The Visaton 4" midrange looks fun too:
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Simple single capacitor and resistor crossover. £10 a pop, what ya got to lose!
yeah...FUN ...
IF you like the 8dB peak.....
With a notch to tame it, even slightly, theyd probably be alright. Theyre attractive to me just because theyre dirt cheap, but the Fs means 3-way only, IMHO.
In my own opinion, some domes are ok, others not. I used to have a pair of the old audax 3/4" domes, but they werent half as good as the diy 'hype' about them would have me believe.
I too like the idea of a decent 2-3" paper cone tweeter, but I havent as yet found any without some nasty break up peak (even if the visatons IS ~15k, and less audible to those with limited hearing).
I struggle to hear the same amplitude THAT high, but I find a peak in this range very fatiguing nevertheless.
For that reason I opted for Tangbands W2-800SL. I know its not paper (which IS a shame), and I know they *supposedly* tweak their published data, BUT Ive actually found them to be VERY neutral, and they sound, to my ears, as flat as the plots suggest. The TB W3-1285SG is also quite remarkable, and the rising FR easy to sort(or easier than that visaton). In both cases the price is the killer though. However, im sure the low Fs makes them(and the paper/poly versions) very suitable for a low order Xover.
Ive almost given up looking for a 'good enough' paper cone tweeter, since Ive found none which dont display a similar response to the Visaton one you linked. A shame, because I generally like Visaton drivers very much.
Many years ago, my late father (who worked at Goodmans in portsmouth during the 70s) gave me some ~3" tweeters, ½" VC, hard fabric dustcap/dome at the centre. A bit tizzy, BUT very dynamic. Wish I still had them now, as I have no idea what model they were (I was maybe 12 years old at the time).
If I were to choose now, id stick with the TBs I have, Or try and source some Mark Audio A6P's (I think thats correct model), although saying that, the sensitivity is probably too low for your application.
IF you like the 8dB peak.....
With a notch to tame it, even slightly, theyd probably be alright. Theyre attractive to me just because theyre dirt cheap, but the Fs means 3-way only, IMHO.
In my own opinion, some domes are ok, others not. I used to have a pair of the old audax 3/4" domes, but they werent half as good as the diy 'hype' about them would have me believe.
I too like the idea of a decent 2-3" paper cone tweeter, but I havent as yet found any without some nasty break up peak (even if the visatons IS ~15k, and less audible to those with limited hearing).
I struggle to hear the same amplitude THAT high, but I find a peak in this range very fatiguing nevertheless.
For that reason I opted for Tangbands W2-800SL. I know its not paper (which IS a shame), and I know they *supposedly* tweak their published data, BUT Ive actually found them to be VERY neutral, and they sound, to my ears, as flat as the plots suggest. The TB W3-1285SG is also quite remarkable, and the rising FR easy to sort(or easier than that visaton). In both cases the price is the killer though. However, im sure the low Fs makes them(and the paper/poly versions) very suitable for a low order Xover.
Ive almost given up looking for a 'good enough' paper cone tweeter, since Ive found none which dont display a similar response to the Visaton one you linked. A shame, because I generally like Visaton drivers very much.
Many years ago, my late father (who worked at Goodmans in portsmouth during the 70s) gave me some ~3" tweeters, ½" VC, hard fabric dustcap/dome at the centre. A bit tizzy, BUT very dynamic. Wish I still had them now, as I have no idea what model they were (I was maybe 12 years old at the time).
If I were to choose now, id stick with the TBs I have, Or try and source some Mark Audio A6P's (I think thats correct model), although saying that, the sensitivity is probably too low for your application.
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re: those Visaton tweeters - I've scavenged identical tweeters branded 'Motorola' out of several road kill speakers, they're a bit peakey, but there's worse out there. I currently have a pair of Matshushita paper cone tweeters that sound very good, think I pulled them out of a pair of Pioneer speakers.
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