I built some 3.5 way speakers in the late 90’s using 2 x Vifa 6.5” (P17WJ) and 1 x Vifa 4”-5” (can’t remember the part number) drivers, with Polk Audio tweeters, 25mm MDF boxes and crossovers I assembled myself.
They sounded very reasonable considering the build cost. From there I worked my way through the lower to mid Sonus Faber range of speakers until I got to the Cremona’s (pre M series) I currently have today.
Before the Cremona’s I had a set of Electa Amator 2’s which were a very natural sounding speakers but being a bookshelf they lacked the range of a full floor standing speaker, which is what prompted the purchase of the Cremona’s.
The Cremona’s while being a very nice set of speakers lack the vocal precision the Electa Amator 2’s had. A few months ago I pulled the drivers out of the Cremona’s to confirm my suspicions that they were Scan-Speak drivers, and more specifically that they were from the Revelator series.
Only the 6.5” had a Scan-Speak code on them, the others had SF codes, but I could roughly work out what they were.
So the speakers contain 2 x Revelator 18W8531G03, 1 x Revelator 15W4531 or 15W8531 (has SF code so don’t know which) and 1 x Discovery R2604/8330 duel ring radiator (has SF code so again can’t be 100% sure)
I was quite surprised to see such a budget tweeter in what are not so cheap speakers. I have decided to see if I can step the new speakers up to the next level and produce something mind blowing.
What I have in mind is the D3004/664000 Beryllium Tweeters from the Scan-Speak Illuminator range. A combination of the 12MU or 15WU and 18WU4741’s from the Illuminator range and perhaps something a little larger.
I was close to making a purchase of the tweeters and some 18WU’s when I thought I really need to seek some advice before out laying this kind of money. There might be much nicer drivers on the market that I haven’t considered.
I very much like the sound of the speakers I have and would have a preference toward the Scan-Speak driver, but I’m not locked into them if there are nicer drivers on the market that maintain the same natural tones.
I would appreciate any advice you might have to give.
They sounded very reasonable considering the build cost. From there I worked my way through the lower to mid Sonus Faber range of speakers until I got to the Cremona’s (pre M series) I currently have today.
Before the Cremona’s I had a set of Electa Amator 2’s which were a very natural sounding speakers but being a bookshelf they lacked the range of a full floor standing speaker, which is what prompted the purchase of the Cremona’s.
The Cremona’s while being a very nice set of speakers lack the vocal precision the Electa Amator 2’s had. A few months ago I pulled the drivers out of the Cremona’s to confirm my suspicions that they were Scan-Speak drivers, and more specifically that they were from the Revelator series.
Only the 6.5” had a Scan-Speak code on them, the others had SF codes, but I could roughly work out what they were.
So the speakers contain 2 x Revelator 18W8531G03, 1 x Revelator 15W4531 or 15W8531 (has SF code so don’t know which) and 1 x Discovery R2604/8330 duel ring radiator (has SF code so again can’t be 100% sure)
I was quite surprised to see such a budget tweeter in what are not so cheap speakers. I have decided to see if I can step the new speakers up to the next level and produce something mind blowing.
What I have in mind is the D3004/664000 Beryllium Tweeters from the Scan-Speak Illuminator range. A combination of the 12MU or 15WU and 18WU4741’s from the Illuminator range and perhaps something a little larger.
I was close to making a purchase of the tweeters and some 18WU’s when I thought I really need to seek some advice before out laying this kind of money. There might be much nicer drivers on the market that I haven’t considered.
I very much like the sound of the speakers I have and would have a preference toward the Scan-Speak driver, but I’m not locked into them if there are nicer drivers on the market that maintain the same natural tones.
I would appreciate any advice you might have to give.
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That's true, check this out:
Illuminator-Monitor
However a 6.5 inch driver is not going to get you anywhere near 20 Hz
Having said that, I'm building a 3 way with the 18WU and the 12MU (and the seas DXT tweeter). Why do a 3 way when the 18WU can be used in a 2 way?
- the mid can be sealed.
- lower filter slopes possible.
- the tweeter to mid distance can be decreased.
- cone breakups are moved out of the passbands.
- mid and woofer enclosures can be engineered with shapes and damping appropriate to their passband, and
- nicer off axis between the mid and the tweeter.
Tom
Illuminator-Monitor
However a 6.5 inch driver is not going to get you anywhere near 20 Hz
Having said that, I'm building a 3 way with the 18WU and the 12MU (and the seas DXT tweeter). Why do a 3 way when the 18WU can be used in a 2 way?
- the mid can be sealed.
- lower filter slopes possible.
- the tweeter to mid distance can be decreased.
- cone breakups are moved out of the passbands.
- mid and woofer enclosures can be engineered with shapes and damping appropriate to their passband, and
- nicer off axis between the mid and the tweeter.
Tom
Basically, you believe that the reason Cremona M does not perform as well as Electa,
might be the driver technology? I think not. The most resonable thing to do, from my
point of view, would be to completely take the x-over assembly out of the box and make
modifications in the x-over region between low pass midrange and high pass tweeter.
If you don't have a measurement system and really know what you should be doing with it,
I suspect this is not going to work out.
You're in Sydney? I'm sure you can find a fellow DIYer there with a measurement system to help you get the maximum performance from those very good drivers. Otherwise, try a completed design by Troels Gravesen (many designs!) DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen or John "Zaph" Krutke .
Tomewing in the many scenarios I played out I was contemplating tweeter, 18WU and something in the 23-26 range but I have no experience in using the modern aluminium drivers. You are using the 12MU is that because you think there is too big a gap between the seas tweeter and the18WU?
Unfortunately Lojzek I sort of needed the $3,600 I got back from the Amators for savings, so I can’t do a comparative test now. In hindsight I wish I had never sold them, I really should have hung onto them since I lost so much on them.
All things being equal shouldn’t I still have a 3db gain on low frequencies with my current speakers being that it has two mid woofers?
Unfortunately Lojzek I sort of needed the $3,600 I got back from the Amators for savings, so I can’t do a comparative test now. In hindsight I wish I had never sold them, I really should have hung onto them since I lost so much on them.
All things being equal shouldn’t I still have a 3db gain on low frequencies with my current speakers being that it has two mid woofers?
Before you pull the drivers out it is possible the BSC design of the speakers doesnt match your room size causing a dip in the vocal range giving you this problem your hearing. you may be able to play with this in the crossover by changing a couple of component values depending.
The XT25 when used 3k and up (which im assuming is the case in your speakers) are very, very good the price of the tweeters is not an indication of how good they are in this instance I think there is something else going on.
I have here 15w8530k01 revelator, air circ r3004/662001 ring, d3004/660000 dome, scan 9500, xt25, sb29r, hds tweeter, scan 8535's...ushers, peerless, vifas...all sorts and bunch of neo tweeters and other woofers.
I dont know if the scan d3004 tweeters will give you what you are looking for...they are so low distortion wise they have a quiet almost dead sound to them. But are extremely revealing also as of the low distortion. more revealing than say xt25. i think the scan ring tweeters r3004s are a little quieter/dead sounding than say the domes d3004's.
In saying that...the xt25 varients full size may be the flattest frequency response tweeters you will find...over 3k distortion is very low and power handling is excellent. My HT front speakers have xt25s from 3k up, peerless 830883 sealed mid and 2x scan 8535s sealed woofers. And the sound is phenomenal in 2 channel mode my amp puts out 130rms x2 power handling is fine.
As good as the scan tweeter/revelator? - no but for a HT setup as high end as I believe is "worth" going/spending.
I really like all the scan SD1 motor woofers (inluding the 8535 which is an oldie) they just have little distortion everywhere under different conditions IMD, multitone (where some other drivers struggle) and sweeps. I really dont know how much you can possibly gain by changing them to the illuminator series from the revelators and for basically a complete speaker redesign? And the revelator slit cones will play a little lower in box than illuminators from memory.
The crossover would also have to be designed - perfectly with proper equipment or else i would not touch your already good speakers you have. They will only end up worse. Not to mention the baffles/boxes are not designed for the illuminators...Basically a ground up new speaker.
If you are set in these ways I would audition say r3004/660000 tweeters in a good designed speaker to see if its what you are looking for first - they will be very similar to the berylium and are an excellent tweeter not to be underestimated, more revealing/detailed than xt25 varients thats for sure!
The XT25 when used 3k and up (which im assuming is the case in your speakers) are very, very good the price of the tweeters is not an indication of how good they are in this instance I think there is something else going on.
I have here 15w8530k01 revelator, air circ r3004/662001 ring, d3004/660000 dome, scan 9500, xt25, sb29r, hds tweeter, scan 8535's...ushers, peerless, vifas...all sorts and bunch of neo tweeters and other woofers.
I dont know if the scan d3004 tweeters will give you what you are looking for...they are so low distortion wise they have a quiet almost dead sound to them. But are extremely revealing also as of the low distortion. more revealing than say xt25. i think the scan ring tweeters r3004s are a little quieter/dead sounding than say the domes d3004's.
In saying that...the xt25 varients full size may be the flattest frequency response tweeters you will find...over 3k distortion is very low and power handling is excellent. My HT front speakers have xt25s from 3k up, peerless 830883 sealed mid and 2x scan 8535s sealed woofers. And the sound is phenomenal in 2 channel mode my amp puts out 130rms x2 power handling is fine.
As good as the scan tweeter/revelator? - no but for a HT setup as high end as I believe is "worth" going/spending.
I really like all the scan SD1 motor woofers (inluding the 8535 which is an oldie) they just have little distortion everywhere under different conditions IMD, multitone (where some other drivers struggle) and sweeps. I really dont know how much you can possibly gain by changing them to the illuminator series from the revelators and for basically a complete speaker redesign? And the revelator slit cones will play a little lower in box than illuminators from memory.
The crossover would also have to be designed - perfectly with proper equipment or else i would not touch your already good speakers you have. They will only end up worse. Not to mention the baffles/boxes are not designed for the illuminators...Basically a ground up new speaker.
If you are set in these ways I would audition say r3004/660000 tweeters in a good designed speaker to see if its what you are looking for first - they will be very similar to the berylium and are an excellent tweeter not to be underestimated, more revealing/detailed than xt25 varients thats for sure!
sorry is the project to modify you existing speakers or keep those and build new ones? If it is to keep the sonus faber and build an additional set I misunderstood.
Still I think with the quality of the drivers you have - little if any gain is to be had the tweeter being the weak link of course in the company of the d/r3004 tweeters only
Still I think with the quality of the drivers you have - little if any gain is to be had the tweeter being the weak link of course in the company of the d/r3004 tweeters only
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Shaun I was planning on purchasing my own EarthWorks Measurement Series microphone, as I figure it will come in handy for setting up the room as well.
Sorry garretba03 I probably should have been a little clear I’m not looking to re-driver my existing Cremona’s I am looking to make completely new boxes with new crossovers.
As for the Electa Amators I am probably not doing them justice they were a phenomenal speaker but lacked the bottom end punch that only a larger driver can produce.
The Cremona’s give a marginally better bottom end but still need the Gravis sub to fill the bottom in. I was looking to improve the general overall response and tightness of the speaker and add some bottom end at the same time.
I always figured I was going to need something bigger than the 18WU’s but not sure what I need since I have no experience with the larger drivers, especially newer aluminium drivers. I have a couple of 10” Vifas kicking around the place that I never used, but they were less than impressive in the large ported cabinet I built way back when.
The 3004 sound fine if they aren’t too bright, as I just want something that is very revealing not overly piercing.
Sorry garretba03 I probably should have been a little clear I’m not looking to re-driver my existing Cremona’s I am looking to make completely new boxes with new crossovers.
As for the Electa Amators I am probably not doing them justice they were a phenomenal speaker but lacked the bottom end punch that only a larger driver can produce.
The Cremona’s give a marginally better bottom end but still need the Gravis sub to fill the bottom in. I was looking to improve the general overall response and tightness of the speaker and add some bottom end at the same time.
I always figured I was going to need something bigger than the 18WU’s but not sure what I need since I have no experience with the larger drivers, especially newer aluminium drivers. I have a couple of 10” Vifas kicking around the place that I never used, but they were less than impressive in the large ported cabinet I built way back when.
The 3004 sound fine if they aren’t too bright, as I just want something that is very revealing not overly piercing.
The dropping of the woofers crossover, insertion of mid between tweeter does a few things ill keep it short and simplish:
woofer plays cleaner staying out of its break up range less distortion and power response of the woofer is better at crossover point, mid plays clean in its range, tweeter can be crossed higher for more power handling/less distortion. basically its all cleaner more even response in theory less bumps in the frequency response at different listening positions...crossover points can be put in less audiable human hearing ranges.
But 3 way is much more difficult to get sounding even/right cause of the different drivers/acoustic centres differences from driver to driver and needs a larger room alot of times...crossover is MUCH more complex than a 2 way.
They both have their plusses and minuses I dont believe one is better than the other as a general rule.
My preferance is 2 way for lower power systems medium room (maybe add a sub 2.1)
if you want to really put power through speakers have a big room and want scan quality...your gonna need 3 way or bigger...and maybe with a sub but in a small room...its just not worth it - it will more than likely sound worse.
You can make a good speaker with good overall qualities as a 2 way with wide band drivers - ZAPH ZRT - but you will sacrifice power handling/sensitivity unless you run sub 2.1 then you can put power into it.
My next build is 2way r3004/18w8531g00 slim tower for a decent sized bedroom ported @30hz to run off prob 60rms/channel HI FI amp.
I really want to see what these 8531G00s can do ported without a sub first as I am impressed with what a pair of 8535s can do sealed without sub and believe for a large bedroom, it will be enough for me and the simpler...sometimes the better.
Speaker design is all about trade offs and comprimises even when using the best drivers you can get...there is no best speaker.
There is as good as you can reasonably design for the application/finances at the time. No use having hellishly expensive speakers if you cant afford food!
Finance really isn’t a concern as I have around $10k budgeted for 5 speakers (2 x mains, 1 x centre and 2 x rears and can extend as required). I just bought myself a whiz bang Makita router and plan to make custom cabinets myself.
I just wanted to build a set of speakers that outperform my current Cremona’s. The current M series Cremona’s are around $17k, and I figure I can build myself something comparable if not better without paying for the name.
I have no shortage of available power as I run the mains off a digital Rotel RB1092 (2 x 1000w @ 4ohm) and a digital Rotel RB1091 (1 x 1000w @ 4ohm) for the centre speaker.
For bottom punch I am not opposed to running separate bass amps in the speakers, like the top of the Polk Audio. I just want more bottom end then the 6.5” drivers can deliver.
Keen to hear how you next 2 way build turns out.
I just wanted to build a set of speakers that outperform my current Cremona’s. The current M series Cremona’s are around $17k, and I figure I can build myself something comparable if not better without paying for the name.
I have no shortage of available power as I run the mains off a digital Rotel RB1092 (2 x 1000w @ 4ohm) and a digital Rotel RB1091 (1 x 1000w @ 4ohm) for the centre speaker.
For bottom punch I am not opposed to running separate bass amps in the speakers, like the top of the Polk Audio. I just want more bottom end then the 6.5” drivers can deliver.
Keen to hear how you next 2 way build turns out.
No, I haven't heard the 15WU, my decision was made purely based upon the published data and parameters. I'd call the 15WU a small mid-woofer, perhaps best used in a small 2 way. That's the way that Scanspeak classify it too. the 12MU more of a dedicated mid.
It was the 12MU that drew me to the Illuminator line and is the driver that the rest of my current project is built around.
Perhaps this would be a good way to make a decision from such a wide array of options. Decide what is most important to you sound wise, and choose a 'pivot' driver that you'll design the system around. Next find a tweeter/woofer/mid to suit that initial selection...
Perhaps Lojzek if I knew the first thing about drivers I might want to make my own, but my limited experience dictates that I use quality known brands. I can still make my own cabinets and crossovers but drivers are a little out of reach for me.
Ok tomewing perhaps a 4 way is starting to form as the way to go. The D3004 tweeter, the 12MU, the 18WU and something in the 23-26 range for some bottom end.
Ok tomewing perhaps a 4 way is starting to form as the way to go. The D3004 tweeter, the 12MU, the 18WU and something in the 23-26 range for some bottom end.
Are you sure you can design from scratch and without experience a speaker that outperforms a reputable high end commercial design? IMHO designing an excellent speaker is not only choosing hi-end drivers, but mainly combining them in the right way with a properly designed crossover. Buying top class drivers and expecting to build a hi-end speaker without prior experience can lead to a waste of time and money.
I would do one of the following:
1) Build a hi-end design from a reputable designer, like Troels Gravesen Diy Loudspeaker Projects
2) Start designing your own speaker with inexpensive drivers learning how to use simulation software and measuring tools (check the sticky post here).
Ralf
I wouldn’t say I am without any speaker building experience, attached are the photos of some speaker I built from scratch in the 90’s.
All of the attached speakers where built using just a jigsaw, a power drill to drill the pilot holes for the screws and a few half moon files. All the boards were cut to size by me using a self service wood shop.
I have a great deal of patience to get things perfect, all speaker and port holes are probably within half of a mm of round. It took a few goes to get the cross overs right but persistance paid off, with the use of a test tone disk and my ears to get a even sound level.
Front speakers are 25mm MDF, the sub is 32mm MDF and the rears are 19mm MDF.
All of the attached speakers where built using just a jigsaw, a power drill to drill the pilot holes for the screws and a few half moon files. All the boards were cut to size by me using a self service wood shop.
I have a great deal of patience to get things perfect, all speaker and port holes are probably within half of a mm of round. It took a few goes to get the cross overs right but persistance paid off, with the use of a test tone disk and my ears to get a even sound level.
Front speakers are 25mm MDF, the sub is 32mm MDF and the rears are 19mm MDF.
Attachments
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Silent,
Are you looking to mod your current speaker or is the ultimate game to build a new speaker to out perform the cremona's ....
You have the ability to build speakers , doesn't mean they will be good sounding enuff to outperform the cremona's . You will have to voice the drivers after you have narrowed them down selecting the one that sound the most natural to you,
Then the complex task of getting the cabinet aero right , then the xover, then Voicing them in again to get the xover design right ...
This maybe what giralfino is alluding to when attempting to better the cremona's
It will take experience and may take sometime, if u like the challenge go for it ...
Are you looking to mod your current speaker or is the ultimate game to build a new speaker to out perform the cremona's ....
You have the ability to build speakers , doesn't mean they will be good sounding enuff to outperform the cremona's . You will have to voice the drivers after you have narrowed them down selecting the one that sound the most natural to you,
Then the complex task of getting the cabinet aero right , then the xover, then Voicing them in again to get the xover design right ...
This maybe what giralfino is alluding to when attempting to better the cremona's
It will take experience and may take sometime, if u like the challenge go for it ...
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