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Old 5th February 2012, 10:17 AM   #21
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Imagine that if all out of phase response between woofer and tweeter can be solved using the delay circuit without ill effect, then it will make speaker designers life a lot easier. But I have tried it and decided not to use it. Prefer to find the in-phase response without the delay circuit.

Well, I know, a first order on the woofer will give a very good sound, and you may want to "sacrifice" the tweeter for that
Click the image to open in full size.
We are sidetracking a bit, but I had a look at that crossover.

The trap on the bass operates at 1kHz and Q=2, the bass notch across the driver at 6khZ and Q=0.9. Looks like first order plus the effect of the trap to me, which is hard to do in your head on a 6.9 ohm Re bass!

The 4.3uF/0.25mH highpass rolloff looks around 5kHz, though I didn't calculate it. The bandstop around 2kHz as I thought. The LCR notch on Fs is really quite variable. I got 225uF, 0.59mh and 3.7 ohm on published specs at Fs 436Hz. Guess that will change as the Re=3 ohm tweeter breaks in.

Seems to me, we agree simpler filters would work just as well.
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Old 5th February 2012, 12:48 PM   #22
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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HeHe, back on-topic!

Fructose, I've got you your design for a nice, modern and tiny studio monitor in BBC tradition, Troels Gravesen's Studio 101:

Studio 101 Monitorcopyright 2009

Decent impedance, stays above 6 ohms. Easy 13L cabinet (extendable if you want bigger) and room to tweak to your hearts content.

Drive units available and nice to boot: ScanSpeak 18W/8542-00 + SEAS 27TFFC.

Scanspeak is 130 6.5" paper unit. SEAS is a 30 vented soft-dome ferrofluid tweeter that I like a lot. Looks ace, and strangely old-fashioned!
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Old 5th February 2012, 02:33 PM   #23
woof is offline woof  United States
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Originally Posted by fructose View Post
Very nice. Exactly what I'm looking for. Do you know of any other pictures of that one. I could not find any specific threads.
Jeff is very active on PE's TechTalk. A "Continuum" search there has over a hundred mentions and pics. His design is also being sold by Salk Sound and has a nice write-up.

Continuum home
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Old 5th February 2012, 03:01 PM   #24
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Fructose, I've got you your design for a nice, modern and tiny studio monitor in BBC tradition, Troels Gravesen's Studio 101:
Isn't funny (like always), people always start to like a certain speaker then think to clone the object but then wander around and build something completely different.

It is not an LS3/5A clone just because the cabinet has the same retro look Actually, many things can be cloned from the LS3/5A, except the retro look that doesn't contribute to the sound character.
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Old 5th February 2012, 03:14 PM   #25
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Isn't funny (like always), people always start to like a certain speaker then think to clone the object but then wander around and build something completely different.

It is not an LS3/5A clone just because the cabinet has the same retro look Actually, many things can be cloned from the LS3/5A, except the retro look that doesn't contribute to the sound character.
I hadn't appreciated what effort Jeff Bagby had put into recreating a modern LS3/5A, as it goes. The continuum kit looks very good down to the plastic woofer.
Continuum, Pr

He discusses it here:
The BBC LS3/5a's oddball crossover: bass from "nowhere" - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com

As it goes (personal rant...) I hate bextrene cones. Dull as anything. Combined with a new metal dome which would probably make my ears bleed!

Troels' Studio 101 is his take on the Proac Studio 100 which is a hugely respected speaker too. Reflex is of course not outside the BBC tradition. The Spendor BC1 had a vent. It's always interesting to look at classic monitors and try and figure out why they were so good.
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Old 5th February 2012, 03:26 PM   #26
sreten is online now sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

We are sidetracking a bit, but I had a look at that crossover.

Seems to me, we agree simpler filters would work just as well.
Hi,

The crossover is a no compromise take on providing 2nd order L/R acoustic
responses without the assymetry usually used to take into account the
offset of the drivers acoustic centres, hence the delay circuit.

No doubt there are simpler x/o options, but they would not meet the
criteria laid out by Zaph. His write-up on the x/o is very comprehensive
and simpler filters simply won't "work as well" in this reference design.

Having said that the woofers only are $425 a pair, the best drivers
are expensive, and so it the complete speaker. It certainly isn't a
high value option. It would suit an OTT cabinet build.

Regarding the LS3/5A clones I'm not that keen on the Monacor
bass/mid, its a relatively cheap driver with limited Xmax. Zaphs
tests of the Aurum Cantus are pretty good for the drivers cost.
(Though his specs are way different to the manufactures.)

rgds, sreten.

I'd say given the cost of importing the Stirling Broadcast
stuff into the States, the "Continuum" is a better idea.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by sreten; 5th February 2012 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 5th February 2012, 03:53 PM   #27
woof is offline woof  United States
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I have not actually heard Jeff's Continuum design myself. But several people whose opinion I value greatly have. And to a man, each said that they could live with it as their reference monitor. One actually designed an MLTL cabinet to extend the low end. And now that the kit is available at Meniscus for a very good price, it will be the next project I build. And if you are not a woodworker that can duplicate the cabinet, Jeff posts info on the cabinet builder that did his original. Add that to the fact that Jim Salk, who builds commercial designs in the thousands, would offer it as well, speaks volumes. If this design is what you are after, it seems a reasonable way to get there.
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Old 5th February 2012, 09:21 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by sreten View Post
I'd say given the cost of importing the Stirling Broadcast
stuff into the States, the "Continuum" is a better idea.

Have you checked out the Mandolin kit from Meniscus? I'm thinking thinking that might be the better overall speaker, but I'm looking for a speaker I can have fairly close to the rear wall (about 1 foot). How are the quality of the drivers?
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Old 5th February 2012, 11:31 PM   #29
sreten is online now sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fructose View Post
Have you checked out the Mandolin kit from Meniscus? I'm thinking thinking
that might be the better overall speaker, but I'm looking for a speaker I can
have fairly close to the rear wall (about 1 foot).
How are the quality of the drivers?
Hi,

when you read a writeup that is mainly waffle because they don't want
to give away technical details you can't glean much. Personally I'd
never have a vented box that is -3dB at 42Hz and -6dB 4Hz lower.

A foot from the rear of the cabinet is doable with larger distances
to side walls. If you don't have a sub I'll repeat again floorstanders
are your best bet, and in terms of performance vs. cost if you are
building the cabinets, a 6.5"/1" two way floorstander tuned low
is hard to beat, unless it doesn't meet SPL requirements.

If you really don't know what you want its hard to to say go for this.

For a lot less than your $1000 budget I'd suggest :

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga
or
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/zx-spectrum

If you want a straightforward build regarding the cabinets for the budget.

They will for the money out perform LS3/5A clones inevitably, the latter
only really make sense if you must have or want to have miniatures,
which can sound fabulous within their inevitable limitations.

In the end you have to get your feet dirty and make up your own mind
what is likely best for you, nobody can tell you that, only point you in
the right direction given sensible questions.

Personally I prefer far more techinical detail than provided with the
Mandolins, the tweeter is good according to Zaph, and so is a
presumably similar but different SB bass/mid unit, but I'd want
to change the apparent bass end alignment.

rgds, sreten.

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=219617
http://www.zaphaudio.com
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200909021...esigningXO.htm
http://www.rjbaudio.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200909022...ve99/Spkrbldg/
http://speakerdesignworks.com/
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/david/david.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html
http://www.quarter-wave.com/
http://www.frugal-horn.com/
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.musicanddesign.com/

Great free SPICE Emulator : http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fold...t/tina-ti.html
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There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 5th February 2012 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 6th February 2012, 07:05 PM   #30
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Thank you very much, sreten. I'll look over this the next couple of weeks. I'll make a new thread then (no longer interested in the LS3/5A design).
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