Hey friends, I've been lurking here for years and am finally taking the plunge for a build!
I am building a pair of near-field studio monitors. The Seas coax seem like the best solution: flat [enough] response without being too directional. I will not be building the Loki kit, but putting the drivers in a sealed enclosure. I primarily record jazz and produce digital music, which have a lot of lows, so I would like to add a bass driver. Madisound recommended the 9" Morel UW958, but that just breaks the bank. I would need to buy the drivers as a pair. I don't want to have a separate sub; I prefer to capture as much definition from the driver as I can by having it on axis with my ear. I also don't want to port the enclosure and muddy the mid to low spectrum, so that isn't an option either. I believe too much definition is lost in floor subs for applications as critical as mix engineering, so finding a cost-effective pair is my goal.
So I'm looking for accurate, musical, and affordable that would work well in a sealed application. If you have a good suggestion, I would be much obliged!
I'll be happy to provide some pics of the build when it's done!
I am building a pair of near-field studio monitors. The Seas coax seem like the best solution: flat [enough] response without being too directional. I will not be building the Loki kit, but putting the drivers in a sealed enclosure. I primarily record jazz and produce digital music, which have a lot of lows, so I would like to add a bass driver. Madisound recommended the 9" Morel UW958, but that just breaks the bank. I would need to buy the drivers as a pair. I don't want to have a separate sub; I prefer to capture as much definition from the driver as I can by having it on axis with my ear. I also don't want to port the enclosure and muddy the mid to low spectrum, so that isn't an option either. I believe too much definition is lost in floor subs for applications as critical as mix engineering, so finding a cost-effective pair is my goal.
So I'm looking for accurate, musical, and affordable that would work well in a sealed application. If you have a good suggestion, I would be much obliged!
I'll be happy to provide some pics of the build when it's done!
If you haven't already ordered the seas coax, I'd strongly consider the KEF Q900 or Q700 drivers instead. They have a lot less diffraction etc going on thanks to the careful surround and phase plug designs.
As for a bass driver, you'll need something to cover the bandwidth from around 300hz to below 80hz for either driver. If box size isn't an issue, then I would consider a Dayton RS270. It is a metal cone driver so you might need to work the crossover a bit, but the result is exceptional.
P.S. a well designed ML-TL will most certainly not "muddy the low end"
As for a bass driver, you'll need something to cover the bandwidth from around 300hz to below 80hz for either driver. If box size isn't an issue, then I would consider a Dayton RS270. It is a metal cone driver so you might need to work the crossover a bit, but the result is exceptional.
P.S. a well designed ML-TL will most certainly not "muddy the low end"
Thanks Rock! I haven't ordered yet, and I'm not set in stone on anything. Those KEF Q900's look like a great option. When I search for them, all I can find is a tower speaker. Are they sold driver-only anywhere?
Space is an issue, I'd like to keep the box as small as I can, but I can build it up if need be. Ideally the monitors will be small enough to fit comfortably on my desk along side my monitor.
Here's a photo with my current speaker configuration (should be public).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=289759587729049&set=pu.254366804601661&type=1&theater
Space is an issue, I'd like to keep the box as small as I can, but I can build it up if need be. Ideally the monitors will be small enough to fit comfortably on my desk along side my monitor.
Here's a photo with my current speaker configuration (should be public).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=289759587729049&set=pu.254366804601661&type=1&theater
Yes, there are a few places that sell the stand-alone drivers. Here's one:
KEF Q900
KEF Q100
KEF 4.5" Coaxial
Then a 10" driver with a large vas probably isn't the best choice. You'll take a bit of a hit on the sensitivity front, but this alpine:
Amazon.com: SWR-823D - Alpine 8" Type-R Dual 2-Ohm Subwoofer: Car Electronics
Will handle the desired frequency range nicely. In about .6 cu ft sealed you'll have an F3 of 52hz and the advanced motor and overall design will ensure excellent performance right up into the lower midrange.
You could probably use a linkwitz transform to extend response all the way to 20hz since it's nearfield. 1m SPL w/ 200w is about 89db @ 20hz (excursion limited), 100db @ 40hz, and 106db @ 100hz+
Last edited:
Thanks for your response! I've given it some thought, and I like the idea of a Kef coaxial driver. They make a fine product and it seems like a good choice. I've been trying to hear them locally but have been coming up short. I'm sure I'd get a good result with either - but I can't find a spec sheet for the Kef. It seems like I could make a more well-engineered speaker with the Seas coax considering I have all the specs to work with. You seem to know better resources for these things; do you have a spec sheet for the Kef Q900 and/or Q100? I've even tried contacting Kef directly but they do not respond.
One thing has changed, I have purchased a bigger desk to accommodate the recording/production equipment. Box size is no longer an issue and using a 10" bass driver isn't a problem.
I was looking at Zaph Audio and he seems to like SB Acoustics, what do you think of this 10" driver? I was thinking it mayn't handle the 100-300Hz range well, but it looks like those Kef drivers could be crossed over at 100 Hz pretty well. They have a surprisingly low frequency spec on the reconingspeakers project page.
SB Acoustics SB29SWNRX-S75 10" Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
I don't know how that would stack up to your suggested 8" Alpine or 10" Dayton drivers. I was looking at other 8" drivers and found this Tang Band, a name I see come up from time to time as high quality.
Tang Band W8-1747A 8" Aluminum Cone Subwoofer 264-892
Of course accuracy is the goal, so it's tough to tell since so many woofer-heads go for the high SPLs.
Thanks for any further advice you can offer!
One thing has changed, I have purchased a bigger desk to accommodate the recording/production equipment. Box size is no longer an issue and using a 10" bass driver isn't a problem.
I was looking at Zaph Audio and he seems to like SB Acoustics, what do you think of this 10" driver? I was thinking it mayn't handle the 100-300Hz range well, but it looks like those Kef drivers could be crossed over at 100 Hz pretty well. They have a surprisingly low frequency spec on the reconingspeakers project page.
SB Acoustics SB29SWNRX-S75 10" Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
I don't know how that would stack up to your suggested 8" Alpine or 10" Dayton drivers. I was looking at other 8" drivers and found this Tang Band, a name I see come up from time to time as high quality.
Tang Band W8-1747A 8" Aluminum Cone Subwoofer 264-892
Of course accuracy is the goal, so it's tough to tell since so many woofer-heads go for the high SPLs.
Thanks for any further advice you can offer!
Dollar for dollar, I think it's very hard to beat the Dayton RS series for your application. Most of them are very usable up into the lower mid-range for flexible x-over options. The very powerful motors, long linear excursion, and high thermal limits translate to a lot of possible box alignments that can either use box size or amplification power to achieve the desired results (with EQ/transform).
How so? Without measuring any drivers yourself, in your box design, at your altitude and temperature, you won't be setting yourself up for great results. Especially when we're talking about a 3-way.
Spec sheet TS Parameters and response graphs are nice but they are wholely insufficent IMO for building a high fidelity speaker. The resolution on supplied response graphs will never approximate your hearing and TSP are widely known to never be spot on either.
Without the drivers in your hand - whether seas, kef, or TAD... you won't have a great time designing a speaker.
I'll get back to you later on the SB although they are nice drivers.
The number one key to a good bass driver is a good motor and suspension design with faraday sleeves/rings, controlled BL factor, sufficient linear excursion (especially for sealed), and good thermal compression behaviour. For a midbass you really need unrolled off response at least an octave above the crossover point with a controlled Le(x) curve.
Having a good bass driver alone garuntees nothing though in real rooms. SQ in rooms is dominated by frequency response, not harmonic distortion. For good FR you truly need freedom from compression no matter the signal. Going sealed makes this quite the task.
The alpine subwoofers truly are fine drivers with low inductance and lots of linear excursion to match. For sealed alignments it'd be tough finding something more suited. There's lots of nice hifi drivers optimized for vented alignments but few that will work as great sealed.
The daytons are truly sweet as well with triple shorting ring klippel optimized motors. Alpine does have a 10" driver in that same line as well. The Usher 1001b is another choice that you can't go wrong with.
Best results from any coaxial come from aggressively limiting cone motion because the cone is a waveguide. I would cross it at over 300hz. Passive crossovers are not an option below ~300hz anyways because of dcr in air core inductors. If you're doing a line level / active crossover then you get a bit more freedom but still need careful examination of phase and frequency response.
Sure it will dig deep but it's just not necessary if you've got a more suited driver for the task. The less asked of the mid in the bass, the more composed it should stay in the mids and treble. After building a box I would try to roll the mid off near or above the -3db point of the baffle step.
Ill get back to you on this as well.
Last edited:
Le = 3mH for a 6 ohm driver = 0.5mH/ohm .. this is visible as an inductance hump and steep rolloff in the frequency response.
How would it stack up?
Well, in comparision,
Dayton RS 270 Le = 0.9 mH for an 8 ohm driver = 0.1125 mH/ohm
Usher 1001b Le = 0.92mH for an 8 ohm driver = 0.115mH/ohm
Alpine 823 Le = 0.87mH for a 4 ohm driver = 0.2175 mH/ohm
To me, those particular drivers seem much more suited for use as actual woofers, and I suspect are more linear drivers on a whole anyways. IMO immediate rolloff in response should be done by air core inductors, not cored inductors (IE voice coils).
And you really want flexibility. a 100hz crossover might be a plausible goal but if you're restricted to it then you're not going to get flexible results.
You really want drivers with very low inductance for use as woofers. For sub < 60hz maybe there's other priorities but for SQ the woofer needs to have very low IMD, FMD, 4HD/5HD, etc.
I can't recommend the SB unit as anything but a subwoofer, and I feel there's some subwoofers that are way better.
Another driver that you should strongly consider, is the CSS SDX-10. The idea of using it as a woofer only occurred to me a few days ago and I made a thread about it. And with 18mm linear xmax, it will reproduce just about anything you can throw at it nearfield. It's a TRUE low distortion subwoofer.
The impedance trace shows a resonance near 110hz that shows up in the frequency response. Dunno the subjective consequences but I'd be iffy on it.
Last edited:
Thank you so much to everyone who has contributed. I am learning a whole lot here!
After some research and thought, I am attracted to the Dayton driver for its great price and efficiency that is very closely matched to the Seas driver. From what I understand, this will make it easier to build a crossover.
The last one I'm considering is this 9" Morel driver, which seems to polarize listeners. Many say they're quite overpriced, others call them musical. It does match the specs of the Seas perfectly, they're both 8 ohm resistance with efficiency of 87 dB. It also catches my attention that it's recommended for a sealed application.
Morel CAW938 9" Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
I do like the price and the look (not that look matters) of the Dayton better. Overall it seems like a lot of really superb choices here.
After some research and thought, I am attracted to the Dayton driver for its great price and efficiency that is very closely matched to the Seas driver. From what I understand, this will make it easier to build a crossover.
The last one I'm considering is this 9" Morel driver, which seems to polarize listeners. Many say they're quite overpriced, others call them musical. It does match the specs of the Seas perfectly, they're both 8 ohm resistance with efficiency of 87 dB. It also catches my attention that it's recommended for a sealed application.
Morel CAW938 9" Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
I do like the price and the look (not that look matters) of the Dayton better. Overall it seems like a lot of really superb choices here.
Driver resistance doesn't matter. You need to look at complex impedance to come up with a transfer function, and you need to measure sensitivity yourself using the same equipment.
Reading your posts I suspect you're not at all ready to tackle a 3-way speaker.
I think a 2-way is a much better idea, or to get an experienced designer to work together a good crossover for you. It's not as easy as throwing together some textbook transfer functions.
Well, the build got set back by work, my friend's shop getting shut down by the county, and myriad other issues, but it's finally complete!
I ended up getting a great deal on an acoustically tuned matched pair of Seas Exige coax drivers. I liked them better than the Loki. Kef sounded nice as well, but had that bump in the 2kHz range that so many tweeters have to sweeten voice/guitar/etc. Truth be told, if I was making a set of speakers for music listening/home theater, I might prefer Kef.
That said, the acoustician I worked with recommended a Dayton Reference 10" sub. The offical Seas literature recommends a crossover point of 70 Hz when pairing the Exige with a sub; I decided to go with that against the acoustician's recommendation of 50 Hz.
I'm still breaking the set in, but they sound great. It's mostly used for low volume nearfield use, but they get loud with real little effort. The bass is articulate and tight, the treble smooth and even. Mids are great, the lower mids (noticable on alto sax/alto voice) seem a little over-emphasized. I need to tune the room, if it still seems like a problem, I'll put more acoustic fluff in the cabinet. If it still persists, I'll find the exact frequency with my measuring mic/software and look at tuning it out via the crossover.
I appreciate the helpful responses I got here. I'm lucky to live in So Cal where I could locate and listen to a lot of the drivers recommended to me. That CSS SDX-10 looks like an exceptional driver, but I was never able to find one. I didn't want to purchase/use it sight unseen. If I had more dough to throw around I would've ordered one and built a cabinet using to compare. That might be a driver I'll use in the future.
I ordered a pair of Fostex 841's when it became apparent I wouldn't be able to complete this project in the scope of time I initially assumed I would. They're great monitor speakers, but even still, they sweeten the highs and fail to produce any deep lows. That had me switching to headphones for a lot of my mixing and sound design, not my favorite thing to do. All in all, these Seas/Dayton speakers blow away the Fostex, and living close to Vintage King Audio, I can say these monitors are competitive with the exotic $3-5,000 pairs for sale there.
Not sure what to do with the Fostex at the moment, they're just placed on top of the Seas/Dayton pairs, but here's a quick pic:
Thanks again for being here to bounce ideas off of, I really appreciate having some experienced folks to chat with.
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SDX10
I ended up getting a great deal on an acoustically tuned matched pair of Seas Exige coax drivers. I liked them better than the Loki. Kef sounded nice as well, but had that bump in the 2kHz range that so many tweeters have to sweeten voice/guitar/etc. Truth be told, if I was making a set of speakers for music listening/home theater, I might prefer Kef.
That said, the acoustician I worked with recommended a Dayton Reference 10" sub. The offical Seas literature recommends a crossover point of 70 Hz when pairing the Exige with a sub; I decided to go with that against the acoustician's recommendation of 50 Hz.
I'm still breaking the set in, but they sound great. It's mostly used for low volume nearfield use, but they get loud with real little effort. The bass is articulate and tight, the treble smooth and even. Mids are great, the lower mids (noticable on alto sax/alto voice) seem a little over-emphasized. I need to tune the room, if it still seems like a problem, I'll put more acoustic fluff in the cabinet. If it still persists, I'll find the exact frequency with my measuring mic/software and look at tuning it out via the crossover.
I appreciate the helpful responses I got here. I'm lucky to live in So Cal where I could locate and listen to a lot of the drivers recommended to me. That CSS SDX-10 looks like an exceptional driver, but I was never able to find one. I didn't want to purchase/use it sight unseen. If I had more dough to throw around I would've ordered one and built a cabinet using to compare. That might be a driver I'll use in the future.
I ordered a pair of Fostex 841's when it became apparent I wouldn't be able to complete this project in the scope of time I initially assumed I would. They're great monitor speakers, but even still, they sweeten the highs and fail to produce any deep lows. That had me switching to headphones for a lot of my mixing and sound design, not my favorite thing to do. All in all, these Seas/Dayton speakers blow away the Fostex, and living close to Vintage King Audio, I can say these monitors are competitive with the exotic $3-5,000 pairs for sale there.
Not sure what to do with the Fostex at the moment, they're just placed on top of the Seas/Dayton pairs, but here's a quick pic:
Thanks again for being here to bounce ideas off of, I really appreciate having some experienced folks to chat with.
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SDX10
Thanks Zvu! I'm happy with the way the paint and finish came out. No measurements yet. The setup now really builds a lot of bass, it's way too close to the wall. I ran a frequency sweep and observed it with a measurement mic and it's decently flat. Bass starts dropping off around 38 Hz, I hope to get some deeper extension with an active crossover and Linkwitz transform circuit in the future.
I'm looking at moving in the next few months, also looking at setting my studio up in a commercial space. Either way, I plan on really acoustically treating my next space, which will give me a better analytic response. I'll necro-post this thread again when it's in a treated room and set up properly, with actual response charts and everything.
I'm looking at moving in the next few months, also looking at setting my studio up in a commercial space. Either way, I plan on really acoustically treating my next space, which will give me a better analytic response. I'll necro-post this thread again when it's in a treated room and set up properly, with actual response charts and everything.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.