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Old 21st September 2003, 03:48 PM   #1
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Default Crossover orders question

First-order crossovers are easy and cheap. The studio monitors I'm using have 1st-order on the tweeter (a cap) and nothing on the woofer, and they manage to be flat from 45hz-20khz.

Most of the time, though, 1st-order is chosen because of cost, and you see it in el-cheapo speakers.

2nd-order has some neat properties--the phase shift is 180 degrees, so you hook the drivers up out of phase and the phase comes out correct--and the highpass crossover keeps all potential excursion constant below the crossover point.

My question is this: if I cross over a tweeter 2nd-order at a reasonable point, I've guaranteed by virtue of the 12db/oct slope that it will not get overloaded; why, then, do people use 4th-order slopes? It seems like overkill.
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Old 21st September 2003, 04:16 PM   #2
Volenti is offline Volenti  Australia
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I use 4th order x-overs a bit in car audio, though their usually fully active or active + passive, generally to narrowly bandpass mid bass drivers or other wise try to fix the plethora of problems that car audio presents
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Old 21st September 2003, 06:01 PM   #3
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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Default Higher orders...

Have no idea why they are used.

2nd order is as high a I go. Choose drivers carefully, most times add a 1st order to the woofer (plus natural rolloff), some times nothing on the woofer and a 2nd order to the tweeter plus an L-pad. Works for me. Keeps it simple.

Seen some crossovers with 4th order and compensation circuits that would be lucky to fit in the box. I thought if you chose your drivers carefully, you should be able to dispense with all this stuff that seems to try and make up for driver's shortcomings.

At the moment I'm trying to get a grip on serial crossovers (Andy Graddon has been an immense help) as these are so simple though not so easy to implement. Worth a try though as could be very rewarding - you never know if you don't have a go. The use of 1 resistor, 1 cap, 1 inductor in a crossover for 2 drivers really appeals to me. But maybe that's just me.

Would like to here from those that do use higher orders.
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Old 21st September 2003, 06:08 PM   #4
SY is offline SY  United States
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Just a couple of brief comments:

1. Electrical order and acoustical order are two different things. Don't assume that the latter follows the former.

2. When you talk about how a loudspeaker measures, you have to specify where, especially with lower order crossovers.
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Old 21st September 2003, 06:28 PM   #5
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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Could you please explain what you mean by:

"2. When you talk about how a loudspeaker measures, you have to specify where, especially with lower order crossovers."

The only measuring gear I've got are ears - it either sounds good or doesn't.

Thanks
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Old 21st September 2003, 07:14 PM   #6
Ken L is offline Ken L  United States
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Default 4th orders seem far more common in subs

when you get down to the lower ranges in hz, you frequently need a steeper slope for best integration.

if you are crossing at say between 100 and 150, the mid simply isn't dropping off quickly enough (in many cases)

FWIW, biamping with a digital linelevel crossover and crossing at 146 hz, nothing integrated as well as fourth order L-R in my setup. I played with a number of slopes, orders and crossover points.


So I would say that _where_ you are crossing has a lot to do with what type of slopes you are thinking about using.

There's going to be a lot of difference between crossover points of say 100 hz and 3k.


regards

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Old 21st September 2003, 07:29 PM   #7
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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Yeah. I knew that.

Must be the brain not working too well in the wee hours of the morning.

Thanks
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Old 21st September 2003, 08:03 PM   #8
octopus is offline octopus  England
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I chose a 4th order crossover, at 3kHz. The good thing its all in phase, but you need two or three more components each section.
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Old 22nd September 2003, 12:27 AM   #9
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by rabbitz
SY

Could you please explain what you mean by:

"2. When you talk about how a loudspeaker measures, you have to specify where, especially with lower order crossovers."

The only measuring gear I've got are ears - it either sounds good or doesn't.

Thanks
If a speaker is flat in one point in space, it's unlikely to be flat at another- polar responses have all kinds of funny behavior. In the case of 1st order crossovers, the polar pattern is VERY poorly controlled, and arrival time differences can really hump up the frequency response; the first order network is exquisitely sensitive to zero delay plane offsets, so the vertical polar patten usually comes out even worse than the horizontal pattern.

The only *acoustic* first order designs I've ever heard that sounded uncolored and had stable imaging were 5 or 6 way designs.
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Old 22nd September 2003, 12:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
The only *acoustic* first order designs I've ever heard that sounded uncolored and had stable imaging were 5 or 6 way designs.

hehe--I KNEW there had to be a reason that I could put a ton of POS spare drivers in cardboard boxes, and as long as I had more than 10 of them, it would sound good!
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