Hi,
The TD15M has impressive specs for a 15” (high efficiency, low mass, and very low Le) and looks – at least on paper – to be a super, large format, midrange driver (DR, not hornloaded). The idea of having a single driver covering from the whole 100-1,500 Hz seems attractive for sure.
I haven’t had a chance to hear the driver myself, but I would be very interested in hearing from people who has. I am especially interested in hearing from those of you who have compared it directly to ‘smaller’ dedicated mids (e.g. JBL 2118H / 2123H, PHL 4351 / 1120 / 1660, B&C 8PE21, etc.). My concern is especially about the quality of the response in the upper register. Is the TD15M as revealing in the 500-1,500 range as the smaller alternatives?
Thanks a lot in advance!
Best regards
Peter
The TD15M has impressive specs for a 15” (high efficiency, low mass, and very low Le) and looks – at least on paper – to be a super, large format, midrange driver (DR, not hornloaded). The idea of having a single driver covering from the whole 100-1,500 Hz seems attractive for sure.
I haven’t had a chance to hear the driver myself, but I would be very interested in hearing from people who has. I am especially interested in hearing from those of you who have compared it directly to ‘smaller’ dedicated mids (e.g. JBL 2118H / 2123H, PHL 4351 / 1120 / 1660, B&C 8PE21, etc.). My concern is especially about the quality of the response in the upper register. Is the TD15M as revealing in the 500-1,500 range as the smaller alternatives?
Thanks a lot in advance!
Best regards
Peter
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I heard a pair in an active 2 way with CD/WG a year or so ago, and they were outstanding. I've also owned the JBL2123 and used them for a decade or more, but have not compared side by side, similarly I've heard the PHL1120/1660 a few times.
Now depending upon what you really want to do in your build, I'd say yes, it can do it and well.
FWIW, I own 12 AE TD drivers so am very biased.
Now depending upon what you really want to do in your build, I'd say yes, it can do it and well.
FWIW, I own 12 AE TD drivers so am very biased.
The narrow directivity is exactly what you want if crossing to a constant directivity waveguide. I'm running TD15M (from 80 Hz to 1000Hz) crossed to SEOS15. The setup has the best midrange I've gotten in (obviously limited) experience, including SEAS
6.5" midwoofers, electrostats, and planar ribbons. Opinion only, ymmv.
6.5" midwoofers, electrostats, and planar ribbons. Opinion only, ymmv.
Wouldn't that depend on the dispersion of the waveguide?
If I were to use a WG with 90deg dispersion I would not want my mid/woofer have a narrower dispersion at the xover frequency.
That said if I were to use a 60deg WG a 15" crossed at 1.5k might be ok.
Hi pos, bwaslo, Charles, and Badman,
Thanks a lot for responding!
I currently use the Beyma TPL-150H and consider to use the TD15M to as a mid-driver together with the Beyma. The Beyma has a constant 80° horizontal dispersion down to app. 1,200 Hz, so this would be the suggested crossover point.
Now, "djk" has provided the rule of thumb, that the frequency at which a given cone driver will beem relative to a given dispersion angle, can be calculated by means of the following simple equation:
1,000,000 / driver size in inches / dispersion in degrees = frequency
For an average 15" cone driver (whatever that is), the equation gives:
1,000,000 / 15 / 80 degrees = 833,3 Hz
That is quite a bit lower that the 1,200 cycles I am aiming for. However, the people at AE states that the TD15M have considerably wider dispersion than the average 15" woofer due to cone shape and the phase plug, but unfortunately I do not know how much wider. In case anybody knows whether the TD15M would have dispersion close to 80° around 1,200 Hz, I would very much like to know! Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Thanks a lot for responding!
I currently use the Beyma TPL-150H and consider to use the TD15M to as a mid-driver together with the Beyma. The Beyma has a constant 80° horizontal dispersion down to app. 1,200 Hz, so this would be the suggested crossover point.
Now, "djk" has provided the rule of thumb, that the frequency at which a given cone driver will beem relative to a given dispersion angle, can be calculated by means of the following simple equation:
1,000,000 / driver size in inches / dispersion in degrees = frequency
For an average 15" cone driver (whatever that is), the equation gives:
1,000,000 / 15 / 80 degrees = 833,3 Hz
That is quite a bit lower that the 1,200 cycles I am aiming for. However, the people at AE states that the TD15M have considerably wider dispersion than the average 15" woofer due to cone shape and the phase plug, but unfortunately I do not know how much wider. In case anybody knows whether the TD15M would have dispersion close to 80° around 1,200 Hz, I would very much like to know! Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
I believe the cone and phaseplug is identical on all TD15-woofers, thus they have same dispersion-characteristics.
Here is measurement 0-20-40 degrees of th15x:
http://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/15/ae-speakers-td15x/frequency-response
Best regards
Gisle
Here is measurement 0-20-40 degrees of th15x:
http://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/15/ae-speakers-td15x/frequency-response
Best regards
Gisle
KISS -- KISS
BANG -- BANG
If you have a 920mm pair of red lips like the E-JMLC 300 horn which can be crossed down at 700hz, then the TD15M or TD15LO would be a good midbass choice.
If you have a pair of 518mm red lips like the E-JMLC 600 horn which can be crossed at 1-1.2Khz, then the TD10M or TD10LO would be a good midbass choice.
--------insert your favorite pucker up joke here --------------
I'm a fan of using a wide bandwidth midbass to cover most of the vocal range, roughly 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together.
There are several physical limitations in using one standard speaker over a wide bandwidth.
1) Frequency response and quality of sound.
2) horizontal and vertical polar response (beaming)
3) IMD Intermodulation distortion (doppler) from summing low and high frequencies
4) adequate SPL levels
STILL.. there is a large full range speaker group that accepts these compromises over crossovers.
When you run through the equations, it looks like 3-way with an 8" or 10" midbass speaker is the best option to cover a low of (80-100Hz) to a high of (1,200, 1,500Hz). IMD(doppler) start to increase rapidly even with the xover dropping just from 100 to 80Hz. Constant directivity degrades rapidly with the xover increasing from 1,000 to 1,500Hz. A midbass with a curvelinear cone profile plus phase plug has ~10% superior directivity.
Several 98-100 db/watt high efficiency old school speakers with a 300Hz crossover used two 15" woofers, a 10" midbass like the JBL 2012H, and a 1" compression driver with a 90 x 40 constant directivity horn. I have found that accepting a 94-95 db/watt SPL efficiency and a 1,400-1,600Hz crossover to a suitable tweeter allowed me to use a light cone 8" midbass to pull detail over the vocal_range, or a 10" midbass to put more weight behind vocals with some additional compromise in dispersion. I have Tang Band W8-1808 and Lambda TD10M.
BANG -- BANG
If you have a 920mm pair of red lips like the E-JMLC 300 horn which can be crossed down at 700hz, then the TD15M or TD15LO would be a good midbass choice.
If you have a pair of 518mm red lips like the E-JMLC 600 horn which can be crossed at 1-1.2Khz, then the TD10M or TD10LO would be a good midbass choice.
--------insert your favorite pucker up joke here --------------
I'm a fan of using a wide bandwidth midbass to cover most of the vocal range, roughly 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together.
There are several physical limitations in using one standard speaker over a wide bandwidth.
1) Frequency response and quality of sound.
2) horizontal and vertical polar response (beaming)
3) IMD Intermodulation distortion (doppler) from summing low and high frequencies
4) adequate SPL levels
STILL.. there is a large full range speaker group that accepts these compromises over crossovers.
When you run through the equations, it looks like 3-way with an 8" or 10" midbass speaker is the best option to cover a low of (80-100Hz) to a high of (1,200, 1,500Hz). IMD(doppler) start to increase rapidly even with the xover dropping just from 100 to 80Hz. Constant directivity degrades rapidly with the xover increasing from 1,000 to 1,500Hz. A midbass with a curvelinear cone profile plus phase plug has ~10% superior directivity.
Several 98-100 db/watt high efficiency old school speakers with a 300Hz crossover used two 15" woofers, a 10" midbass like the JBL 2012H, and a 1" compression driver with a 90 x 40 constant directivity horn. I have found that accepting a 94-95 db/watt SPL efficiency and a 1,400-1,600Hz crossover to a suitable tweeter allowed me to use a light cone 8" midbass to pull detail over the vocal_range, or a 10" midbass to put more weight behind vocals with some additional compromise in dispersion. I have Tang Band W8-1808 and Lambda TD10M.
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An under rated movie, and Michelle Monaghan is very cute in the Santa's helper outfit.
Domestically there is no need for the dual 15's, but otherwise variations on the above are my standard for a 3 way HE system.
BTW, the Daniel's column uses as 2382 and 2" 2450H.
Thanks for all the replies!
Audiodidakt:
Thanks for the links to the measurements! I may be reading the graphs wrongly, but the TD15x does not seem to have less beaming than the B&C 15" driver also reported. Please correct me, if I'm wrong, though.
bwaslo:
Thanks for correcting the basis for estimating cone size for djk’s equation. I have checked out some of djk's calculations, and they are based on factual cone size exactly as you suggest instead of overall driver size. This correction makes a given cone driver usable slightly further up in frequency. However, unless the TD15M really behaves differently than other 15" woofers with regards to dispersion in the upper register, it may be difficult to match the TD15M to the Beyma TPL-150H with a 80° constant horizontal dispersion. Thus, Charles' suggestion of using one (or two?) TD12M('s) instead of the TD15M may be a good idea.
LineSource:
Thanks for all the suggestions! I would like to avoid compression drivers. I have tried several (BMS 4592 ND, Community M200, and B&C DE25), but to my ears they do not sound as natural as I would like too. However, I am very interested in hearing more about your experiences with the AE TD10M. Does it sound as detailed and clear as I suppose the light-cone TB W8-1808 does?
Thanks a lot!
Bet regards
Peter
Audiodidakt:
Thanks for the links to the measurements! I may be reading the graphs wrongly, but the TD15x does not seem to have less beaming than the B&C 15" driver also reported. Please correct me, if I'm wrong, though.
bwaslo:
Thanks for correcting the basis for estimating cone size for djk’s equation. I have checked out some of djk's calculations, and they are based on factual cone size exactly as you suggest instead of overall driver size. This correction makes a given cone driver usable slightly further up in frequency. However, unless the TD15M really behaves differently than other 15" woofers with regards to dispersion in the upper register, it may be difficult to match the TD15M to the Beyma TPL-150H with a 80° constant horizontal dispersion. Thus, Charles' suggestion of using one (or two?) TD12M('s) instead of the TD15M may be a good idea.
LineSource:
Thanks for all the suggestions! I would like to avoid compression drivers. I have tried several (BMS 4592 ND, Community M200, and B&C DE25), but to my ears they do not sound as natural as I would like too. However, I am very interested in hearing more about your experiences with the AE TD10M. Does it sound as detailed and clear as I suppose the light-cone TB W8-1808 does?
Thanks a lot!
Bet regards
Peter
The TD15M has a different cone profile than the others, which mostly affects the (beam-ey) HF extension it achieves up to 4kHz+, but I think it also changes dispersion a bit. Here's a measurement for you. It is still a work in progress so I am not confident about the exact frequency response, but I am pretty confident about the >1kHz dispersion shown. This is on a 28" baffle, rotated around the center axis of the baffle at fixed mic distance:
And this is vertical (heading off the bottom of the same baffle, which should effectively work something like a 36" baffle, not that this should make much difference at these angles and frequencies). More importantly, this is 44" distance, while the first is 33". Ignore the bright green line:
By the way, it is worth noting that while I'm still working on my measurement technique, there does appear to be a very real rise of about 5-9dB on-axis to reach the 98dB figure, so useable efficiency is going to be more mid-to-lower 90s. If I turn out to be wrong about this, sorry for the slander, but I'm pretty sure it's real.
And this is vertical (heading off the bottom of the same baffle, which should effectively work something like a 36" baffle, not that this should make much difference at these angles and frequencies). More importantly, this is 44" distance, while the first is 33". Ignore the bright green line:
By the way, it is worth noting that while I'm still working on my measurement technique, there does appear to be a very real rise of about 5-9dB on-axis to reach the 98dB figure, so useable efficiency is going to be more mid-to-lower 90s. If I turn out to be wrong about this, sorry for the slander, but I'm pretty sure it's real.
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This may be of some interest to you My TD15H & Beyma TPL-150H Build
I used the AE TD15H & Beyma TPL-150H crossed at 1.2 kHz and I am very happy with the results.
I've settled on a (~10 gram) light cone 8" midbass like the TB W8-1808 crossed LR4 or digitally steeper at 1,400Hz to a dome (like 94db/watt SB29RBNC) or (1") wide DIY ribbon tweeter. The ISO226 equal loudness curves show some advantages for xovers under 1.8Khz. Bass Xover LR4 or steeper at 100Hz for reasonable IMD(doppler). Measurements show a modest advantage to a phase plug and clever cone profile. Female voices tell the truth. . . Diane Krall, Natalie Cole, Kathleen Battle sound close your eyes wonderful on the light pure-paper-cone because there is no crossover over the fundamental of their vocal range. There is a reason for a Full Range Group with many 8" designs.
The TD10M has a 44g MMs and my ears hear superior lower midbass power, but a lack of detail plus beaming over 1000Hz. Rock-n-Roll champs. Not ideal for Soprano Divas. A 2" full range or 1.6" tweeter might marry well to the TD10M's low'ish Xover requirements. I would use the TD10M or TD10LO with a horn (E-JMLC600 lips) tweeter because it would better match the horn dispersion pattern and horn dynamics.
I've been working with sculpture cement to form B&W sphere + tapered tube shapes for the 8" midbass + tweeter. The Celeston 4360 (which has an 8" PHL midbass) and B&W 801 sphere+tube for the 5" midrange are my inspiration.
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Hi Loren42,
Thanks a lot for the link! Somehow, I had missed that thread. Your speakers look truly great!
Could you please elaborate on your impressions of the TD15M relative to other mids/mid-bass drivers your have listened to?
Thanks, once again!
Best regards
Peter
Thanks a lot for the link! Somehow, I had missed that thread. Your speakers look truly great!
Could you please elaborate on your impressions of the TD15M relative to other mids/mid-bass drivers your have listened to?
Thanks, once again!
Best regards
Peter
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