I did the test,
I knew my old Tannoy speakers were efficient but this seems just a little too efficient?
I listen very often to internet radio, Live365, almost exclusively to Baroque24/7.
I downloaded both test tones on to my laptop, the same laptop I listen to internet radio.
With my usual serious listening volume unchanged I switched to the test tones, connected my meter to the speaker terminals and played the tones.
On the 0-3vac scale I got a reading of 0.4vac
Doing the arithmetic for my 15 OHM speakers, they only require .085 watts!
Perhaps this is the reason why I'm so in love with my cheap little T2020 chip amp, it's been one of lifes few pleasant surprises.
Terry
I knew my old Tannoy speakers were efficient but this seems just a little too efficient?
I listen very often to internet radio, Live365, almost exclusively to Baroque24/7.
I downloaded both test tones on to my laptop, the same laptop I listen to internet radio.
With my usual serious listening volume unchanged I switched to the test tones, connected my meter to the speaker terminals and played the tones.
On the 0-3vac scale I got a reading of 0.4vac
Doing the arithmetic for my 15 OHM speakers, they only require .085 watts!
Perhaps this is the reason why I'm so in love with my cheap little T2020 chip amp, it's been one of lifes few pleasant surprises.
Terry
Terry, thanks for ding the test. It's surprising, isn't it? I figure you need about 1.25V RMS for you loudest levels, or 1.6V peak. The TA2020 can do that with ease.
Your levels are about in line with my Altec VOTT speakers.
Wazzy, that's loud! Should be over 100dB for the -12 tone. Do you have a really big room, or do you just play very loud in general?
Your levels are about in line with my Altec VOTT speakers.
Wazzy, that's loud! Should be over 100dB for the -12 tone. Do you have a really big room, or do you just play very loud in general?
Hello Pano, yes it was rather loud, to be honest it is not a level that i play at continuously, just some times I like to Feel the music, takes me back to when we used to do live setups. It's not a big room by any means I will post the results of a more sedate listening level a bit later, got to got to work, thanks for an interesting thread.
Hi Plano,
I first tested a large pair of very efficient vintage 15 Ohm vented enclosure speakers that came out at requiring 0.4v
Yesterday, using the same setup, I connected a pair 3 way, sealed 4 Ohm "bookshelf" speakers and adjusted for my listening level.
The volume needed to be racked up a bit but only tested at requiring 1.2v
What is going on when the poll show some require over 20v? Is it about playing the loudest you speakers go or your normal listening level? Both are mentioned in the testing instructions.
Thanks, Terry
I first tested a large pair of very efficient vintage 15 Ohm vented enclosure speakers that came out at requiring 0.4v
Yesterday, using the same setup, I connected a pair 3 way, sealed 4 Ohm "bookshelf" speakers and adjusted for my listening level.
The volume needed to be racked up a bit but only tested at requiring 1.2v
What is going on when the poll show some require over 20v? Is it about playing the loudest you speakers go or your normal listening level? Both are mentioned in the testing instructions.
Thanks, Terry
Yes, as Andrew says, loudest level you use. You can do a "normal" level, if you also want that reference, but the poll (survey) is for loudest.
Please remember, your peak voltage at the volume setting you used will be 4X higher than the voltage you measure on the tone. The highest RMS voltage will be 2.82X higher than the tone. The difference you measured between the vintage speakers and the bookshelf is almost 10dB. Or 3X the voltage from one to the other. I leave you to figure out the difference in power, if you want.
Thanks for doing the test!
Please remember, your peak voltage at the volume setting you used will be 4X higher than the voltage you measure on the tone. The highest RMS voltage will be 2.82X higher than the tone. The difference you measured between the vintage speakers and the bookshelf is almost 10dB. Or 3X the voltage from one to the other. I leave you to figure out the difference in power, if you want.
Thanks for doing the test!
Hello Michael,
This is a very interesting post, and forgive me if my questions have already answered in the last 75 pages or so. (just joined the thread)
Several years ago I did a similar test using a 1KHz 0dBFS tone and a SPL meter, but it was uncomfortably loud and thus I didn't replicate it much.
This method is much kinder on the ears.
I was wondering a few things:
a) Is this test affected by whether or not our amplifiers are clipping?
b) Can the test be refined or further developed to figure out "How much power (RMS) do I really need?"
This is a very interesting post, and forgive me if my questions have already answered in the last 75 pages or so. (just joined the thread)
Several years ago I did a similar test using a 1KHz 0dBFS tone and a SPL meter, but it was uncomfortably loud and thus I didn't replicate it much.
This method is much kinder on the ears.
I was wondering a few things:
a) Is this test affected by whether or not our amplifiers are clipping?
b) Can the test be refined or further developed to figure out "How much power (RMS) do I really need?"
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Answers - yes and yes.
With a -12dBFS (-9dB RMS) signal you should not be clipping. That's one of the reasons I put it down there. It's possible, but not likely, you'd clip the tone. If you do, then the rest of your music is going to be horribly clipped.
If you take your measured voltage and multiply it by 2.83, you will know the highest RMS voltage you need at that volume setting. Use Ohm's law to figure your power. Leave yourself some headroom when choosing an amp. Pretty simple.
With a -12dBFS (-9dB RMS) signal you should not be clipping. That's one of the reasons I put it down there. It's possible, but not likely, you'd clip the tone. If you do, then the rest of your music is going to be horribly clipped.
If you take your measured voltage and multiply it by 2.83, you will know the highest RMS voltage you need at that volume setting. Use Ohm's law to figure your power. Leave yourself some headroom when choosing an amp. Pretty simple.
OK I took some measurements.
It really does depend on what I'm playing.
Material that is very quiet eg. classical music, needs the volume control to be turned up, because the soft bits need to be turned up.
So I can measure between 1V to 20V, depending on what I'm listening to.
Turns out Rickie Lee Jones regularly clips my 200W amps, but Nelly Furtado only needs about 1V.
Are first watt afficionado's really audiophiles? I think not.
It really does depend on what I'm playing.
Material that is very quiet eg. classical music, needs the volume control to be turned up, because the soft bits need to be turned up.
So I can measure between 1V to 20V, depending on what I'm listening to.
Turns out Rickie Lee Jones regularly clips my 200W amps, but Nelly Furtado only needs about 1V.
Are first watt afficionado's really audiophiles? I think not.
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Thanks for the data points, guys. I hope that the measurements are useful to you.
Yes, picking dynamic tracks will really make a difference to where you set the volume, and thus the voltage you measure on the test tone. I certainly turn up the volume on classical and dynamic jazz tracks because the average level is fairly low. The peaks are still recorded at 0dB, but those peaks are now at a higher voltage because the volume is up.
First Watt fans can be just as audiophile as anyone, power numbers can get out of hand very fast. I can get realistic live levels in my room with just a few watts (>5 RMS). Typical levels are a fraction of a watt. That's because the room isn't big and the speakers are efficient. Bigger spaces and lower efficiency speakers call for more voltage.
Yes, picking dynamic tracks will really make a difference to where you set the volume, and thus the voltage you measure on the test tone. I certainly turn up the volume on classical and dynamic jazz tracks because the average level is fairly low. The peaks are still recorded at 0dB, but those peaks are now at a higher voltage because the volume is up.
First Watt fans can be just as audiophile as anyone, power numbers can get out of hand very fast. I can get realistic live levels in my room with just a few watts (>5 RMS). Typical levels are a fraction of a watt. That's because the room isn't big and the speakers are efficient. Bigger spaces and lower efficiency speakers call for more voltage.
I hope you mean "Depending on where I set the volume knob". That's the point of this test.
Hi Michael,
If you play some tracks from like Rickie Lee Jones's album Flying Cowboys, you will easily hit 10-20V, or more
I have 87dB/2.83V speakers, in a medium sized 6x9m room.
If you play Nelly Furtado's Whoa Nelly! , you'll likely measure less than 2V.
I am not saying that I am doing the test incorrectly, but the results do reflect what listening material people are using to set their reference volume knob.
If you play some tracks from like Rickie Lee Jones's album Flying Cowboys, you will easily hit 10-20V, or more
I have 87dB/2.83V speakers, in a medium sized 6x9m room.
If you play Nelly Furtado's Whoa Nelly! , you'll likely measure less than 2V.
I am not saying that I am doing the test incorrectly, but the results do reflect what listening material people are using to set their reference volume knob.
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Yes. quite correct. That's why I suggest finding a few dynamic tracks that force you to turn up the volume for a good listening level, then use that are your reference point.
With the amp volume set where I normally have it I will never hit 10-20V, it's impossible. The most I could ever hit is 2.5V peak. Or about 1.75V RMS. That's all the voltage the gain allows. My gain at normal loud setting is basically 1. 1.75 volts out of the DAC will give me 1.75V at the speaker terminals. There are times I set the volume higher, but not much. And please remember, the test tone is 12dB RMS below peak.
Once my volume is set, the is no way for the peak voltage to go more than 4X above what I measure. In my case about 0.6V on the tone. The maximum RMS I would ever see is 2.83X above the measured tone.
If you have set the volume where you like it loud on the Rickie Lee Jones album and measure 20V on the test tone, that means your max RMS voltage would be about 56V. The peaks will be hitting 80 volts.
With the amp volume set where I normally have it I will never hit 10-20V, it's impossible. The most I could ever hit is 2.5V peak. Or about 1.75V RMS. That's all the voltage the gain allows. My gain at normal loud setting is basically 1. 1.75 volts out of the DAC will give me 1.75V at the speaker terminals. There are times I set the volume higher, but not much. And please remember, the test tone is 12dB RMS below peak.
Once my volume is set, the is no way for the peak voltage to go more than 4X above what I measure. In my case about 0.6V on the tone. The maximum RMS I would ever see is 2.83X above the measured tone.
If you have set the volume where you like it loud on the Rickie Lee Jones album and measure 20V on the test tone, that means your max RMS voltage would be about 56V. The peaks will be hitting 80 volts.
On classical music the soft bits are supposed to be soft.
With my old ears and various speakers I only needed between 0.4v and 1.2v on classical music. Say for Never Mind The Bollocks, I need to turn the sound down.
Perhaps years of blasting ones youthful eardrums with loud music through headphones makes it now neccessary for a 200w amp?
Back in the 50's there was demonstrations at Carnegie Hall of side by side live and recorded music and it took just 60 watts of amplified sound to fill the hall to live music levels.
Perhaps modern 200 watt amps are not really 200 watts?
Years ago I got more than enough clean sound from a pair of Leak TL12's
I wanted to provoke a few people with the comment "first watt afficionados not being real audiophiles"
Like any good test or experiment, it is important to do an analysis of
the results. The background, aims, methodology and data collection of this test
are sound. I really like it. But what does the results actually mean?
What are the limitations and implications for future research?
That part is open to discussion.
Putting my serious, non provocative hat on, I propose that the large proportion of <5V
readings reflect not low volumes that people listen to, but that the majority of recordings in circulation have limited dynamic range.
Michael, try Rickie Lee Jones "Ghetto of my mind" and see for yourself.
Set your level at a enjoyable, but not deafening listen level at your
listening chair, then measure the test tones. Tell me what voltage reading you hit.
(Hint: This 1989 recording has an excellent dynamic range of 24dB.)
Like any good test or experiment, it is important to do an analysis of
the results. The background, aims, methodology and data collection of this test
are sound. I really like it. But what does the results actually mean?
What are the limitations and implications for future research?
That part is open to discussion.
Putting my serious, non provocative hat on, I propose that the large proportion of <5V
readings reflect not low volumes that people listen to, but that the majority of recordings in circulation have limited dynamic range.
Michael, try Rickie Lee Jones "Ghetto of my mind" and see for yourself.
Set your level at a enjoyable, but not deafening listen level at your
listening chair, then measure the test tones. Tell me what voltage reading you hit.
(Hint: This 1989 recording has an excellent dynamic range of 24dB.)
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I don't have the recording, tho I have some other R.L.J. But no problem, I have plenty of recordings with equal or better dynamic range. That's what I used to set my volume for the test. And that's how I end up with 0.6V on the test at that volume setting. Other systems will be different. And drunken party loud will need higher voltages.
As long as we talk about voltage, most people don't get upset, probably because they never thought about it in terms of voltage. But mention watts and the claws come out. We've been so brainwashed to know how many watts we do or don't need, that a real test can upset those notions. Knowing what you actually need is what is important, not whether it's a lot or a little.
It all depends on your system and your room. To reach some given SPL it's going to take a certain voltage. The purpose of this test is to know that voltage. Be it 1 volt or 80 volts, it's easy to know using a digital source. That's the whole point. There is no "better", no "worse". There is simply "what you've got." If you measure, you'll know.
As long as we talk about voltage, most people don't get upset, probably because they never thought about it in terms of voltage. But mention watts and the claws come out. We've been so brainwashed to know how many watts we do or don't need, that a real test can upset those notions. Knowing what you actually need is what is important, not whether it's a lot or a little.
It all depends on your system and your room. To reach some given SPL it's going to take a certain voltage. The purpose of this test is to know that voltage. Be it 1 volt or 80 volts, it's easy to know using a digital source. That's the whole point. There is no "better", no "worse". There is simply "what you've got." If you measure, you'll know.