Yes, even the discovery series drivers are to expensive for a $1000 /pr tower speaker that is well built in Canada with a proper xo, and marketed.
Think cheap and perhaps consult with the designer you choose to pay.
Trust me i wont quit my job unless the demand start going up.
And i actualy need a LOT more before i can even start to think about selling.
+1
That is what I am about to say. I guess getting into this biz requires substantial investment and ability to chalk up the losses.
Now is the time where most well established speakers companies are struggling.
I don't meant to discourage you but the people with the money (1% or less of population) may not have interest in the low cost speakers.
The people with less money who are HT oriented has so many choices so you need to be very highly competitive.
In my opinion, the hardest part is compromise between sound, size and materials cost.
DIY speakers put 100% of the cost directly into the drivers and materials. So of course it's a bargain but a commercial equivalent of a $100 DIY effort would have to cost many multiples of that, with my wild guess being about $1,000.
Another challenge is size. The bigger the speaker, probably the fewer the unit sales. People build speakers for best sound, but people -buy- speakers based largely on looks and how it fits into their living space.
That's why I think a technological breakthrough would be essential to a commercial venture. Otherwise, one risks being simply a company "making standard speakers but with higher quality but at an affordable price." I don't think that will cut it, unless one is aiming at a specialized niche (e.g., commercial single-driver speakers, or the big horn market where bigger size is actually a plus, or any other niche where the sound quality is more important than appearance).
Just one person's opinion! I think you should go for it because of your passion. Don't let anyone dissuade you (although I believe a venture like that will take years if not decades, based on the examples of others, though your experience may be different of course).
DIY speakers put 100% of the cost directly into the drivers and materials. So of course it's a bargain but a commercial equivalent of a $100 DIY effort would have to cost many multiples of that, with my wild guess being about $1,000.
Another challenge is size. The bigger the speaker, probably the fewer the unit sales. People build speakers for best sound, but people -buy- speakers based largely on looks and how it fits into their living space.
That's why I think a technological breakthrough would be essential to a commercial venture. Otherwise, one risks being simply a company "making standard speakers but with higher quality but at an affordable price." I don't think that will cut it, unless one is aiming at a specialized niche (e.g., commercial single-driver speakers, or the big horn market where bigger size is actually a plus, or any other niche where the sound quality is more important than appearance).
Just one person's opinion! I think you should go for it because of your passion. Don't let anyone dissuade you (although I believe a venture like that will take years if not decades, based on the examples of others, though your experience may be different of course).
"The people with less money who are HT oriented has so many choices so you need to be very highly competitive"
Thats why i would rely a lot on the cosmetic part to be able to stand out compared to the competition.
You cant put high quality drivers in a budget series, you either wont make money or you wont be competetive price wise.
If you look at most ht 'budget' speaker such as klipsch, polkAudio, Energy, etc. they are mostly sqare Boxes with Close to 0 cosmetic design.
I would obviously not put the sq a side, sq will always be #1 priority.
Thats why i would rely a lot on the cosmetic part to be able to stand out compared to the competition.
You cant put high quality drivers in a budget series, you either wont make money or you wont be competetive price wise.
If you look at most ht 'budget' speaker such as klipsch, polkAudio, Energy, etc. they are mostly sqare Boxes with Close to 0 cosmetic design.
I would obviously not put the sq a side, sq will always be #1 priority.
If your speakers were really good and active I think it would be easier to get into the pro market.
Word of mouth there still trumps marketing many times.
As an example Barefoot Sound did not exist a few years ago and now their monitors are very well regarded and they can't make them fast enough.
Thomas Barefoots two active 3way models retail at $5750 and $8995 the pair btw and are handmade in the USA.
Word of mouth there still trumps marketing many times.
As an example Barefoot Sound did not exist a few years ago and now their monitors are very well regarded and they can't make them fast enough.
Thomas Barefoots two active 3way models retail at $5750 and $8995 the pair btw and are handmade in the USA.
I agree with most here about starting out with a niche product, I also am in the process of doing something similar , and yes it's a niche product, it's been a year for the first design, sofar. Hopefully your in this because you think you can do a better job at it than what's out there, or as others have said, have some new innovative ideas, start out thinking this way, instead of making a business to make money. Looking at all those other designers who are successful I think you'll see a common thread that they have their own philosophy on what make the best sound reproduction.
Good Luck!
Oops, cats out of the bag as Charles had mentioned the pro market, as a recording engineer/musician I see a spot where my product can fit in.
Good Luck!
Oops, cats out of the bag as Charles had mentioned the pro market, as a recording engineer/musician I see a spot where my product can fit in.
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Who's going to do the engineering design? You? If not you, then who?
Edgar Vilchur of Acoustic Research fame was lucky enough to hire some real talent like Roy Allison, Henry Kloss and Ken Kantor. Hope you get as lucky!
Roy and Ken are still around......
There's also a real talented guy who visits here frequently, speakerdave. He's got some impressive loudspeaker engineering credentials. He's also a Canadian resident.
Edgar Vilchur of Acoustic Research fame was lucky enough to hire some real talent like Roy Allison, Henry Kloss and Ken Kantor. Hope you get as lucky!
Roy and Ken are still around......
There's also a real talented guy who visits here frequently, speakerdave. He's got some impressive loudspeaker engineering credentials. He's also a Canadian resident.
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High level of performance / construction & finishing could well be the easiest to reach and maintain -many of the DIY projects displayed here and elsewhere wouldn't be embarrassed in direct comparison to mainstream commercial products.
Getting interested potential customers' ears on your products, as opposed to posting pretty pictures or test measurements on the 'net is a whole 'nother story.
Unless all sales can be delivered or picked up locally, which will of course seriously limit your market penetration, sturdy packaging, shipping and damage insurance expenses can easily double your out the door costs on entry level products.
Getting interested potential customers' ears on your products, as opposed to posting pretty pictures or test measurements on the 'net is a whole 'nother story.
Unless all sales can be delivered or picked up locally, which will of course seriously limit your market penetration, sturdy packaging, shipping and damage insurance expenses can easily double your out the door costs on entry level products.
Thanks for the plug, speaker doctor.
I've left the industry and work in cinema design because it became impossible to make a living as a speaker designer any more, at least without moving to China. A few jobs ago I ran Snell in the Boston area and we had our own cabinet shop and made a beautiful product. The high labor rate was killing us and we couldn't quite break through the $3-4 million barrier (gross sales) where profitability came to match the cost of having a functioning company.
You can go the China route (as most now do) but you have to be able to handle the large minimum orders and your designs will be compromised by the manufacturing approach that the supplier will "prefer".
Against this you have to face consumer trends where an ipod doc is all that most people want.
What was the old joke? "How do you make a small fortune in auto racing (boat racing, the wine business, speaker building..)? "Start with a large fortune."
Better to keep it as a hobby interest.
David S.
I've left the industry and work in cinema design because it became impossible to make a living as a speaker designer any more, at least without moving to China. A few jobs ago I ran Snell in the Boston area and we had our own cabinet shop and made a beautiful product. The high labor rate was killing us and we couldn't quite break through the $3-4 million barrier (gross sales) where profitability came to match the cost of having a functioning company.
You can go the China route (as most now do) but you have to be able to handle the large minimum orders and your designs will be compromised by the manufacturing approach that the supplier will "prefer".
Against this you have to face consumer trends where an ipod doc is all that most people want.
What was the old joke? "How do you make a small fortune in auto racing (boat racing, the wine business, speaker building..)? "Start with a large fortune."
Better to keep it as a hobby interest.
David S.
Like some of the people you see on Dragons Den, who have pi$$ed away hundreds of thousands of dollars on some bogus business venture, only to get laughed off the show.
jeff
Mike you might enjoy the biography of Paul Wilbur Klipsch you can learn from his experience. Cosmetic looks are not going to make it for you as you cannot compete with off shore labour in Asia. People will buy a less than slick looking product if it will do things that other products will not. Remember that high efficiency equals low distortion (PWK proved that). I would think that you need to have a very good design and if you are not a millionaire then a design that can be patented as investors love the false security they believe a patent affords them. I would also suggest that you design a speaker which achieves astounding results with the least expensive components possible and you might have a running chance of success. Be real and be brutally honest with yourself and other and love what you do. Have fun good luck don't stop. Best regards Moray James.
any good canuck kid looking to make a living should wanna try a professional hockey career first - with your signing bonus buy a Tim Horton's franchise and watch the money start flooding in
all kidding aside, many forum members include former industry insiders, or currently struggling self-employed entrepreneurs, and most can attest that regardless of business acumen and even financial resources, a new start up in an established (more or less mature?) manufacturing field faces an uphill battle to survive and grow
hence the "start with a large fortune, to end up with a small one" - but have fun along the way
all kidding aside, many forum members include former industry insiders, or currently struggling self-employed entrepreneurs, and most can attest that regardless of business acumen and even financial resources, a new start up in an established (more or less mature?) manufacturing field faces an uphill battle to survive and grow
hence the "start with a large fortune, to end up with a small one" - but have fun along the way
If you are serious about getting into the speaker business (and I don't want to discourage you), consider the following as crucial to your success:
Product cosmetics can mean more than sound performance.
Who is your dealer base?
What is your profit margin and what margin will you offer the dealer?
What is your advertising budget?
How complete of a line can you launch initially?
What are your relationships with the press?
Can you survive the 6 to 9 months before a first sale? How can you deal with slow cash flow?
Who designs the product? Who handles marketing and sales? Who deals with the factory and QC? Who will bankroll the enterprise?
What suppliers do you know? Are they trustworthy? (Are you trustworthy in their eyes?)
The process:
Have brilliant concept.
Get parts for prototype.
Build prototype. Refine it.
Hire industrial designer.
Design look and refine it. (try not to mess up sonics along the way).
Fly to China and visit 30 suppliers.
Choose one.
Evolve designs with them. Compromise for producability.
Cost out product. Work out margins. Can you sell at a reasonable price?
Place order for first run. You are unknown so they will want full money up front.
Fly to China for pilot run. Expect to have to do minor redesigns to re-voice product.
Deal with mechanical and cosmetic issues.
Schedule full production run.
Fly over to QC first production run.
Put product on a boat.
Travel markets and try to drum up business.
Visit all magazines and try to drum up free PR.
When product arrives, deal with warehousing and order fulfillment.
Start work on next years models.
Repeat....
David S.
Product cosmetics can mean more than sound performance.
Who is your dealer base?
What is your profit margin and what margin will you offer the dealer?
What is your advertising budget?
How complete of a line can you launch initially?
What are your relationships with the press?
Can you survive the 6 to 9 months before a first sale? How can you deal with slow cash flow?
Who designs the product? Who handles marketing and sales? Who deals with the factory and QC? Who will bankroll the enterprise?
What suppliers do you know? Are they trustworthy? (Are you trustworthy in their eyes?)
The process:
Have brilliant concept.
Get parts for prototype.
Build prototype. Refine it.
Hire industrial designer.
Design look and refine it. (try not to mess up sonics along the way).
Fly to China and visit 30 suppliers.
Choose one.
Evolve designs with them. Compromise for producability.
Cost out product. Work out margins. Can you sell at a reasonable price?
Place order for first run. You are unknown so they will want full money up front.
Fly to China for pilot run. Expect to have to do minor redesigns to re-voice product.
Deal with mechanical and cosmetic issues.
Schedule full production run.
Fly over to QC first production run.
Put product on a boat.
Travel markets and try to drum up business.
Visit all magazines and try to drum up free PR.
When product arrives, deal with warehousing and order fulfillment.
Start work on next years models.
Repeat....
David S.
I'm trying to think how that would work. The person who designs the crossover might want to also pick the drivers and specify the size and shape of the front baffle as well as the cabinet volume. The designer would want to give approval of the whole cabinet, for example to make sure it's not a cube where air between all sides would have the same resonant frequency.
For a minimum price range (that it looks like you're well into) there are options other than the traditional passive "speaker-level" crossover. The advent of cheap power amp electronics has made line-level active crossovers and amplifiers built into the speaker cabinet more popular, and there are technical advantages over a passive crossover. Douglas Self's latest book is on active (analog) crossovers, and the book description mentions a lot of the issues:
http://www.amazon.com/Design-Active-Crossovers-Douglas-Self/dp/0240817389
The line-level crossover could also be digital with lowering cost of good A/D's, D/A's and high speed dedicated microprocessors able to do DSP in real time.
For the design this all makes for a lot more learning, design time, and/or paying experts to do those things, but it may (pending this thread becoming a debate on which crossover method is best) be an improvement.
Engineering (and especially making a commercial product to a price point) is all about compromises, so the best you can hope for is as good as you can get it to sound for the price you charge and for the money/time you spent designing it.
A speaker shows up on the market 6 months after your visit to China, that looks exactly like yours, selling for a fraction of your projected retail price.
jeff
There's been a lot of China chat, but IIRC, the OP clearly stated in his first post he wanted to produce the speakers entirely in Canada. He's established his price points. What's left now is for him or a consultant to engineer a design that will result in a cost amenable to his margin targets. In the final pre-production analysis, he may come to realize what he thought was doable; isn't.
However, either way, just going thru the process will be an interesting and educational endeavor.
However, either way, just going thru the process will be an interesting and educational endeavor.
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