2 ways or 3 ways horn BMS coax or Raidian 950..etc..a newbie with too much questions

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
i start learning all those electronic and speaker design..and a bit about horns..etc..from 3 weeks ago.. i think i am ready to build my first speaker
i am using Maxx2 and Grand slamm (just sold) , i had JBL everest dd66000, but not impressed, part of the reason it is till small to fill my room. listening space is around 850/900 sq ft, listen to most type of music, (least for vocal), always enjoy very dynamic , very transparent, fast transient, (i suppose we all are) i enjoy to feel the 11ft or much deeper sound stage.., very wide.., tonal preference always at a bit of cool side, but not too warm. i wish to invest not more than one yr, to come up with my own speaker which at least better than the Maxx2, i suppose it is not that hard, or i am a dreamer

it will be horn, and it is very likely to be E-Jmlc 300 horn, couple with 4 bass drivers

many questions...


  1. 2 ways or 3 ways?, as i heard some TAD and Rey monitor, they are 2 way, sound good and simple, may disagree we should not care too much anything above 16khz..i am not sure, if i go for 2 ways, what drivers..as my listening experience for horn is very limited (TAD based, Vintage JBL...etc.westlake.. )..Radian measurement seem good upto 20Khz, BMS Coaxial 4590 also seem nice, it think it is ok to be driven from 500hz or 700hz till..20khkz with a simple 2nd order crossover

  • 3 ways, more question.. Upper cut off for the mid range ..8Khz , 12khz.., then..tweeter.., a 1" compression unit, or some sort of super tweeters..like those from Fostex..etc ? is it always wiser for mid range and HF driver to be one brand?

i have a few good powerful amp, but they seem to be too powerful for mid and hf..horn, however i should not care about that at this stage

summing up, it would be nice to have some more advices - mid upper crossover frequency range, tweeter choices, drivers selections

horn preference at this stage is E-JMLC 300

merry Christmas for all of u..hahahahaha
 
Last edited:
Hi, if you want to throw big bucks at such a system, take your time and read Lynn's Olson thread "Beyond the Ariel" on this forum. It starts with considering a coaxial unit (woofer and compression driver) and then starts discussing various compression drivers and horns, as well as woofer topologies in a 2 or 3 way system. It's a long thread but very informative, I've learned a lot about speaker design from there. After reading that you'll have a better idea on what you need/want and how to get it. Also Garry Dahl has completed a system based on that thread and you can find it documented somewhere near the end of it.
 
Hi, if you want to throw big bucks at such a system, take your time and read Lynn's Olson thread "Beyond the Ariel" on this forum. It starts with considering a coaxial unit (woofer and compression driver) and then starts discussing various compression drivers and horns, as well as woofer topologies in a 2 or 3 way system. It's a long thread but very informative, I've learned a lot about speaker design from there. After reading that you'll have a better idea on what you need/want and how to get it. Also Garry Dahl has completed a system based on that thread and you can find it documented somewhere near the end of it.

wow, I would not have thought to look in that thread for that information! thanks.
 
Hi, if you want to throw big bucks at such a system, take your time and read Lynn's Olson thread "Beyond the Ariel" on this forum. It starts with considering a coaxial unit (woofer and compression driver) and then starts discussing various compression drivers and horns, as well as woofer topologies in a 2 or 3 way system. It's a long thread but very informative, I've learned a lot about speaker design from there. After reading that you'll have a better idea on what you need/want and how to get it. Also Garry Dahl has completed a system based on that thread and you can find it documented somewhere near the end of it.

thx for you x mas gift..haha, beside that..., i shall get some changes from selling my maxx2 and learn a great deal, why not, i do not want to by any more speaker..but make one
 
Last edited:
wow, I would not have thought to look in that thread for that information! thanks.

Yeah, lot's of good info there. There are loads of discussions about constant directivity, diffraction effects, the importance of low distortions, how to get most of the frequency graphs you read, but also there are detailed discussions on Radian compression drivers, 18Sound CD's and woofers, Tone Tubby's, you will find lots of stuff there. Also, various waveguide/horn profiles are discussed.
 
thx..thx..what is the best trick to ensure "aperiodic" ?


You could use multiple's of these:

Scan Speak 29001 Flow Resistance Vent 296-546

This is nothing more than some "lossy" rockwool fiber-board in a very shallow "cup" with a grill. You could diy this yourself with ease.

As for use it depends on the application, but often a surface area of "venting" is equal to about 1/2 to 2/3rd's the area of the driver and typically placed directly "behind" the drivers (on the rear panel of the loudspeaker). Too little and the effect is low, too much and you'll start to get pressure loss as a cardioid at lower freq.s (depending on box shape and size)..
 
Last edited:
You could use multiple's of these:

Scan Speak 29001 Flow Resistance Vent 296-546

This is nothing more than some "lossy" rockwool fiber-board in a very shallow "cup" with a grill. You could diy this yourself with ease.

As for use it depends on the application, but often a surface area of "venting" is equal to about 1/2 to 2/3rd's the area of the driver and typically placed directly "behind" the drivers (on the rear panel of the loudspeaker). Too little and the effect is low, too much and you'll start to get pressure loss as a cardioid at lower freq.s (depending on box shape and size)..

This is interesting, but how do we calculate the required vent size and amount of resistance in the vent? Is there a rough rule thumb on that? How do we test the results to verify the design?
 
Beyma: TPL 150H
PHL Audio: 3040, with DDS Horn: DMB 10N Pro
18Sound 15W500, with DDS Horn: DVB 15N Pro

Large aperiodic enclosures for the mid and bass.

Subwoofer*s* based on Precision Devices: PD2150

I dunno, waveguides and horns for cone woofers are really undocumented. I mean, we don't really have neither a theoretical framework for modelling them, as Geedes oblate spheroid, nor some kind of empirical aggregate as we have with LeCleach or other profiles.

So, while I am really enthusiastic for high SPL and I've thought much about waveguides for cone drivers, (fueled mostly by discussions around Omnitop in the aforementioned thread), if I would get to build a system I would really think deeply before taking that road. Not if I would want to replace a Wilson Max 2 anyway..
 
This is interesting, but how do we calculate the required vent size and amount of resistance in the vent? Is there a rough rule thumb on that? How do we test the results to verify the design?

You won't get a truly accurate model. The generality is just that, general. A more empirical approach with testing is for those what to "go a bit further with it". The test itself is just Impedance and looking at the resonance in-box, the flatter it is the more it's working correctly. ;)
 
I dunno, waveguides and horns for cone woofers are really undocumented. I mean, we don't really have neither a theoretical framework for modelling them, as Geedes oblate spheroid, nor some kind of empirical aggregate as we have with LeCleach or other profiles.

So, while I am really enthusiastic for high SPL and I've thought much about waveguides for cone drivers, (fueled mostly by discussions around Omnitop in the aforementioned thread), if I would get to build a system I would really think deeply before taking that road. Not if I would want to replace a Wilson Max 2 anyway..

DDS has the polar's of their waveguides. From there it's just a matter of a linear freq. response and selecting a crossover point/type for a better polar integration between the drivers - NOT that any of that is trivial, but that wasn't really the point of discussion for this thread (or at least it didn't seem that way to me).

The OP seems to be looking for *drivers* related to:
1. a Horn/waveguide system, and
2. good presentation of depth, and
3. a large-room system with dynamics at least equal to Wilson Audio offerings.

1 & 2 are often "at odds" with each other. The drivers I've mentioned (further loaded in the fashion I've mentioned), should result in improved perception of depth and clarity when compared to most compression drivers.
 
someone will give me leap 5, so basic box size, vent size, basic diffraction friendly baffle will be ok.., i suppose, there are some trick...which a software may not offer. and i have not yet installed it yet. , not to mention...is the MDF will be OK? if yes..thickness for the front..etc...does size ratio matter...or..Golden box ratio ? 1:0.68:1.68..etc ..think ply good is better? or if i so demanding..i better sandwich something? Glass Fabic cannot compared with long hair wool? Matrix internal wall is a waste of time? Cap and Resistors...choices for fast bass...or some Cap will slow down the bass? or Some..will indeed sound darker..or transparent?

yes i aware of the conflict about "depth " with horn, i heard wonderful width from horns, and super layering and depth from dynamic speakers

i am also looking for quality 12" or 15" woofers too

Just taking about the MId to not not so High frequency , i think a good horn with a good compression driver will likely outperform most dynamic speakers in many area, apart from "depth" - this lead to 2 questions for me at least - one driver from 600hz to the end..or 2 drivers..a mid from 600 to 12K, then a tweeter , or 600hz to 1200hz then a tweeter..or..to 8000hz..to..etc.. mix and match dirvers..example radian with a goto tweeter is a big no no or..eetc.. , of coz assumed i get the cross over correct and able to deal with the time alignment

i am a typical person without DIY any speaker in the past, so i have a lot of wondering

"Polar Integration" ..crossover design..etc..will be the next step - after i finalize my plan for the drivers, it is a bit too soon ,and of coz, any advice and reminder is much appreciated

the Maxx 2 by any mean is one of the very good speaker , however it is just a bit too small in my room, it is part of my warehosue, ceiling is about 11fts, width is about 22ft

haha merry chrristmas, some of you may be Christmas now..or soon..haha
 
Here is some further inspiration

Hinkelsteine
quattro stagioni
Leistungsdruck

The last two are with a coaxial CD from BMS. You can work something like that, with one of the horns from jzagaja, like the one you posted, or something else.. Take a look also at the Octagon I linked earlier, serious well documented stuff there also..

A very informative thread and a system build you can find here
 
Last edited:
DDS has the polar's of their waveguides. From there it's just a matter of a linear freq. response and selecting a crossover point/type for a better polar integration between the drivers - NOT that any of that is trivial, but that wasn't really the point of discussion for this thread (or at least it didn't seem that way to me).

The OP seems to be looking for *drivers* related to:
1. a Horn/waveguide system, and
2. good presentation of depth, and
3. a large-room system with dynamics at least equal to Wilson Audio offerings.

1 & 2 are often "at odds" with each other. The drivers I've mentioned (further loaded in the fashion I've mentioned), should result in improved perception of depth and clarity when compared to most compression drivers.

Hi Scott,

I admit that your recommendation suits hahayan's request in terms of spl, however I am not sure if it would be an accessible build for a beginner. Simply publishing the polar's, while it's admirable it's not enough for ensuring a critical listening system (again, he replaces maxx2). From what I know, those cone driver horns can reveal a whole can of worms, from high order modes, due to mismatch between various cone profiles and the dds horn, diffraction effects due to lack of optimization at the throat, etc. I guess you got my point by now. Although I have to admit, if I'd had the means I would definitively give it a try, because it seems such a fun system to build.

By the way, I remember considering 18Sound 15W500 myself at some point, not for a horn system, but as a direct radiator. Although it is not the most featured high sensitivity woofer from 18Sound (it lacks shorting rings, AIC, etc) I liked the seemingly flat frequency response and the clean impedance curve, free of resonances. It wouldn't be an easy load, even if it is a high sensitivity driver, due to the lack of copper in the motor and the rising impedance curve, but still, it appealed to me. Any other reasons you liked this woofer?
 
Last edited:
You won't get a truly accurate model. The generality is just that, general. A more empirical approach with testing is for those what to "go a bit further with it". The test itself is just Impedance and looking at the resonance in-box, the flatter it is the more it's working correctly. ;)

I'll check Basta! to see if it has a model for this. I can check impedance no problem.
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.