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Old 23rd December 2011, 11:13 AM   #1
Manimal is offline Manimal  United Kingdom
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Default Narrowing the choices

A few months back I got hold of a pair of Peerless HDS134 drivers and used them to build Troel's kit using them coupled with the XT25 tweeter.

Click the image to open in full size.

I raised the treble level (slightly) and have been very impressed with them. I now want to build something bigger for the 17 feet by 11 feet lounge and following negotiations with my other half I have the OK for some floorstanders.

I had thought of Troel's CNO but I think for now with little kids and a new puppy coming next year something a little cheaper will cause me less worry.

I'm looking for more sensitivity than the little standmount and the ability to go loud when the mood takes.

2 designs stand out:
Peerless Nomex 2.5 - PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
Seas 2.5 - CA18RNX

Troel's never seems to say too much but does seem more enthusuastic about the Nomex & its midrange abilities.

I guess either would suit my needs but its the characteristics of the 2 that I would appreciate others views on. I don't want to drown in bass and would probably need to put foam in the port for much of the time as family life going on around them will mean a closer to the wall placement than would be ideal.

Another compromise would be low level listening - good detail at low levels is a must for those late night listening sessions when the kids are in bed upstairs.

I know my limitations and wouldn't be able to make my own crossover design so following a respected design is the way to go for me.

Your thoughts please...
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Old 24th December 2011, 07:45 AM   #2
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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The drivers in the Nomex 2.5 are very good..... especially the tweeter which I've used in my best designs. IMO, that tweeter is far better than the 27TDC and has always been made by Scan Speak.

The 830875 is a great bang for buck woofer and have built a few speakers with it. It needs only a small amount of work in the crossover, which Troel's would have done. The only problem is the truncated frame which can make rebating more difficult but there are ways around that. BTW, that's the drivers in the Elsinore project thread.
The "Elsinore Project" Thread

I'd personally lean towards the Peerless design but I'm sure the SEAS 2.5 would be good as well.
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Old 24th December 2011, 08:20 AM   #3
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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Since you mention the Elsinore project, there are a few acoustic matters that make it look more appealing to me than the Troels design, not that I've listened to either.
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Old 24th December 2011, 07:10 PM   #4
Manimal is offline Manimal  United Kingdom
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Thanks for the replies.

The truncated driver in my little standmounts were a concern.

My woodwork skills are very rudimentary but my expectations of a good finish are high. Not a good combination.

I tried a few trial runs and couldn't get the finish to be acceptable so in the end I emailed Troel's who said leaving it surface mount wasn't a big issue. I therefore bottled it and left them surface mounted. On his website he does mention that surface mounting the Nomex is OK if you can live with it. I probably can...

My leanings too are towards the Nomex - I like the sound of my little HDS and rabbitz comments echo lots of positive feedback on the net.

I am slightly worried about the bass ouput - they will fire down the longest length of the lounge and I will not be able to get them much more than a foot away from both rear and side walls for most of the time. When folks are out or in bed then I can slide them into proper position. I guess foam in the ports will be my friend in this situation.

The Elsinore look awesome - too awesome for my other half

Must get the kids towards bed - we'll all need an early night as tomorrow will be an early start.

Happy Xmas to you.
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Old 24th December 2011, 08:18 PM   #5
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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..and to you too, Manimal and rabbitz.

With regards to your flush mounting, having done it both ways I would recommend a router if you feel less confident (ironic as it may sound, and you can always repair mistakes with putty or felt. In fact, felt can make a substitute for not flush mounting the tweeter, especially at the rim and the upper portion of the woofer's rim.

With regards to your placement issues, it is not usually as simple as port adjusting and one important perspective involves examining mid/bass reflections from the walls around the speaker. You can to some extent control these with aiming, absorption and placing the speaker to spread them out.

A couple of the few things I was noticing about the Elsinore might help to reduce the sensitivity to boundaries, to some degree. One is the multitude of drivers which may reduce colourations from the floor/ceiling bounce, and may spread the intensity of colourations from the side reflections. The other is the wider baffle which would increase the mid/bass directivity a little.
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Old 24th December 2011, 09:58 PM   #6
Manimal is offline Manimal  United Kingdom
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I've got a router and if I go with this design Troel's suggestion of mounting on a 165mm baffle and then use fillets to bring the baffle up to its desired width seems like a manageable plan. One way or another I'd have a go at getting them rebated.

One of the reasons I had considered going the CNO-T25 route on Troel's site is the use of only one bass driver which may give a better response for the room. It's all guesswork though. I don't think I'd be able to get away with bass traps in the lounge - not now anyway. When the kids get older I dream of my own music room but for now its managing the best compromise I can.

Funny game this speaker building - I'm learning that for me chosing a design to build seems to be the hardest part. I guess previous speakers have not hit the spot & I just want to settle into soemthing for the long term. My system is a decent Cyrus set up with CD8X - DAC-XP - 2 PSX-Rs - APA7.5 monoblocks so I've got plenty of power and resolution to hook up some good speakers.

Previous speakers have included
Quad 21L - found these very shouty in the midrange

Dynaudio X32 - revealing but didn't handle volume well again hardening up in the midrange. This was a TMM design like Troel's design. They used to sit where the IPLs are (can see the IPls in the picture at the top of the thread) They were probably a shade too close to the back wall but in that set up (firing across the width of the room) they were away from corners so bass wasn't an issue.

IPL transmission line kit - could go loud for a small 5 inch driver but didn't have the detail of my Dynaudios

Shame there isn't a version with the Peerless tweeter and just one Nomex per speaker. I'd probably go for that without a 2nd thought.
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Old 24th December 2011, 10:37 PM   #7
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manimal View Post
use fillets to bring the baffle up to its desired width
Yes, under the circumstances I'd bring the baffle to my desired width. It may involve a crossover tweak and I mention it simply so you can see this as an option (we all get the itch to tweak, don't we )

You may not need to, but I'd also consider setting the height to bring a little balance between the floor and ceiling bounce (my ceilings are a non-standard 9ft), although this probably won't guarantee exceptional performance on its own.

Quote:
One of the reasons I had considered going the CNO-T25 route on Troel's site is the use of only one bass driver which may give a better response for the room.
Multiple drivers may be helpful or not, but I'm speaking specifically of the reflection region (typically 100-500Hz I guess, with higher frequency reflection issues easier to deal with in other ways) and the benefits of un-coloured sound here.
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Old 25th December 2011, 05:45 AM   #8
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manimal View Post
Shame there isn't a version with the Peerless tweeter and just one Nomex per speaker. I'd probably go for that without a 2nd thought.
I hope you have a great xmas as well.

A well designed 2-way with a single driver is going to have the same extension and level of bass as the 2.5 way version. With the 2-way, you do BSC in the crossover and therefore lose a lot of SPL (up to 6dB depending on the design). The 0.5 woofer takes care of the BSC so the SPL is not reduced. The great advantage of the 2.5 way is greatly reduced excursion (= less distortion = better bass and mids) and higher power handling. If you are going to do a floorstander, a 2.5 way is a better option. I've done a few with the 830875 as 2 ways and 2.5 ways and the latter wins easily. A 2-way with the 830875 is more suited to a bookshelf / stand mounted speaker, such as I still have in use.

The rebate on the 830875 is not necessary and IIRC, Joe's own Elsinores are not rebated. Using a moulding on the straight edge can work well and have a look at Andy G's Trinity.

In a nutshell, the 0.5 woofer does not increase or extend the bass, just increases Sd for better performance, reduces excursion and distortion, increases power handling.
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Old 25th December 2011, 10:27 AM   #9
Manimal is offline Manimal  United Kingdom
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Thanks AllenB and rabbitz your info has really helped dispel some worries.

I've had a chance to read through some (its a big ol thread) of the Elsinore thread & the favourable comparison of the Peerless Nomex to the more expensive scanspeak drivers is really interesting & takes away that slight nagging feeling of should I save up for something 'better'.

My biggest worry was based on my own ignorance. I hadn't grasped that the 0.5 woofer wouldn't add to the bass. More SPL, less distortion, and better bass and mids - what's not to like.

I will go for these - they seem like a really exceptional bang for buck speaker.

Now my mind's made up I can start to have a look round for any Xmas deals from the driver suppliers. Well here's hoping-

I'll probably make some 'rough' cabinets up first and experiment with rebates and a plinth to get them to different heights to see what effect this has on bass reflections. Once I've had a play and determined what sounds best I can then take my time over some nice cabinets.

Thanks to you both -
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Old 26th December 2011, 07:49 AM   #10
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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I'd be very surprised if you don't like them as they are great bang for buck.

I also use the 850488 (HDS134) in my HT speakers and if you like those drivers, you should like the Nomex. The Nomex presentation is a little different (a bit smoother and not as forward) but comes with more body and drive.
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