Alnico is the best
what i can offer is to why alnico prices went up
i am not remebering acurately but alnico is aluminum (bauxite too i think) nickel and cobalt
out of these 3 , 1 or 2 of the main raw materials were mined in Zaire or another west african country
in the 50 and 60 s there were revolutions
the new nationlistic goverment flooded the mines
therefore the raw material prices went up to a stage in time where it became dificult to get the materials
alnico will make a come back as soon as new deposits which can be mined economically are found
or the previos disputes settled
neodynium is the new age breather - but it has a thermeal - discharge problem
till then we are stuck with ceramics
i dont think ceramics will go out easily as the chinese is now one of the leading producers now
and with the authoritan market policy of china there are no worries
till the time that the chinese economy implodes by offering valuable resources at very cheap export rates
but i dont see that happening in the near future
of economic interest :-
the us economy is a house of cards according to some researchers
suranjan
transducer design engineer
what i can offer is to why alnico prices went up
i am not remebering acurately but alnico is aluminum (bauxite too i think) nickel and cobalt
out of these 3 , 1 or 2 of the main raw materials were mined in Zaire or another west african country
in the 50 and 60 s there were revolutions
the new nationlistic goverment flooded the mines
therefore the raw material prices went up to a stage in time where it became dificult to get the materials
alnico will make a come back as soon as new deposits which can be mined economically are found
or the previos disputes settled
neodynium is the new age breather - but it has a thermeal - discharge problem
till then we are stuck with ceramics
i dont think ceramics will go out easily as the chinese is now one of the leading producers now
and with the authoritan market policy of china there are no worries
till the time that the chinese economy implodes by offering valuable resources at very cheap export rates
but i dont see that happening in the near future
of economic interest :-
the us economy is a house of cards according to some researchers
suranjan
transducer design engineer
Banned
Joined 2002
CeramicMan said:
Hi CM,
the speakers and drivers you've seen are also completely
consistent with the fact ceramic magnets cannot handle
flux density and have to be flattened, whilst ALNiCo can
handle flux density and so there is no need to flatten it.
Consequently for ALNiCo magnets they are often also the
central pole piece, which is impossible with ceramic magnets.
You are correct a flattened AlNiCo magnet is entirely the
wrong shape to make best use of its properties, in the
same way a tall ceramic magnet is the wrong shape for
its properties.
Shape is about maximum magnetic force whilst being
also being able to handle the resulting flux density.
This gives the difference in shape of the
two materials magnetic pole piece systems.
sreten.Vuki:
A) That Omniex is located at an Italian site. Which would not be unusual except it is named the "Cleveland Omniex". I wonder if these are made in the USA and that is an Italian dealer.
B) The Omniex looks like a PA driver adapted for high efficiency home use. Look at the pleated surround-I've only seen that on PA drivers. Sensitivity is in high 90's, and a picture elsewhere on the site shows them in a setup with tubes.
C) Here is that picture elsewhere on the site. I must say, they put those Omniexes in two of the best looking Onken enclosures I've ever seen. Onken enclosures are bass reflex with the port integral with the side of the enclosure. These are really great looking.
http://www.olimpiaudio.com/index.html
A) That Omniex is located at an Italian site. Which would not be unusual except it is named the "Cleveland Omniex". I wonder if these are made in the USA and that is an Italian dealer.
B) The Omniex looks like a PA driver adapted for high efficiency home use. Look at the pleated surround-I've only seen that on PA drivers. Sensitivity is in high 90's, and a picture elsewhere on the site shows them in a setup with tubes.
C) Here is that picture elsewhere on the site. I must say, they put those Omniexes in two of the best looking Onken enclosures I've ever seen. Onken enclosures are bass reflex with the port integral with the side of the enclosure. These are really great looking.
http://www.olimpiaudio.com/index.html
Attachments
Suranjan, (and anyone else):
Okay, not to be monotonous, but I am just trying to get a numbers comparison here.
How much would a 40 ounce ceramic magnet for a 10 inch speaker of ±6 mm linear excursion actually cost as opposed to an Alnico magnet of similar strength? I know it would be more, but I am just wondering about how much more, in dollars, euros, rupees or any currency. I realize the magnet structure would be different.
I am curious if the large differnence in price between drivers using ceramic and Alnico is due to the cost of the material itself, or because the only manufacturers likely to incorporate Alnico in their products are high end manufacturers who save it for their best engineered and most expensive units.
Okay, not to be monotonous, but I am just trying to get a numbers comparison here.
How much would a 40 ounce ceramic magnet for a 10 inch speaker of ±6 mm linear excursion actually cost as opposed to an Alnico magnet of similar strength? I know it would be more, but I am just wondering about how much more, in dollars, euros, rupees or any currency. I realize the magnet structure would be different.
I am curious if the large differnence in price between drivers using ceramic and Alnico is due to the cost of the material itself, or because the only manufacturers likely to incorporate Alnico in their products are high end manufacturers who save it for their best engineered and most expensive units.
Material Cost Index Maximum Energy Products
(BH)max (MGOe) Coercivity
Hci (KOe) Maximum Working
Temperature (°C) Machinability
Nd-Fe-B (sintered) 65% Up to 45 Up to 30 180 Fair
Nd-Fe-B (bonded) 50% Up to 10 Up to 11 150 Good
Sm-Co (sintered) 100% Up to 30 Up to 25 350 Difficult
Sm-Co (bonded) 85% Up to 12 Up to 10 150 Fair
Alnico 30% Up to 10 Up to 2 550 Difficult
Hard Ferrite 5% Up to 4 Up to 3 300 Fair
According to this chart the cost index of Alnico is 6 times that of ferrite per magnetic unit of force. Neodimium is 10 to 13 times that of ferrite.
(BH)max (MGOe) Coercivity
Hci (KOe) Maximum Working
Temperature (°C) Machinability
Nd-Fe-B (sintered) 65% Up to 45 Up to 30 180 Fair
Nd-Fe-B (bonded) 50% Up to 10 Up to 11 150 Good
Sm-Co (sintered) 100% Up to 30 Up to 25 350 Difficult
Sm-Co (bonded) 85% Up to 12 Up to 10 150 Fair
Alnico 30% Up to 10 Up to 2 550 Difficult
Hard Ferrite 5% Up to 4 Up to 3 300 Fair
According to this chart the cost index of Alnico is 6 times that of ferrite per magnetic unit of force. Neodimium is 10 to 13 times that of ferrite.
sreten said:KC,
you can get guitar speakers in AlNiCo and ceramic versions.
the AlNiCo are usually 2 to 3 times more.
Thank you for the info. The guitar speakers, I believe, will have less of a "prestige" markup than a high end home audio manufacturer. Still, I think that Alnico guitar speakers might be the choice of guitarists who are after a certain vintage sound and the price might reflect that. Not as much as home audio speakers, for sure, but a similar effect.
Markp:
Thanks for the relative cost per strength listing of various magnetic materials. It is very helpful.
Okay, now we know that Alnico is six times the cost of a similar amount of ferrite. All we have to figure out is how much ferrite costs.
Here is a speaker from Parts Express, a cheap brand made by Eminence I believe, which has a 70 ounce magnet yet which retails for under $18.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-274
It is not being sold as an Original Equipment Manufacturer closeout, or as part of a sale. So we can assume, I think, that is the actual price, complete with profit margin.
On the basis of this, how much can a 70 ounce magnet actually cost a manufacturer? Two dollars at the most?
I have read that the magnet is the most expensive part of a speaker, that most of the other parts are built around it. If 70 ounces of magnet costs two bucks, (just an estimate), then an Alnico magnet should cost about $12 or so. For the equivalent magnetic force of a 70 ounce magnet.
If these conclusions are correct, it would seem to me that Alnico magnetic speakers should be only a little more than ferrite speakers. Am I correct on this?
Thanks for the relative cost per strength listing of various magnetic materials. It is very helpful.
Okay, now we know that Alnico is six times the cost of a similar amount of ferrite. All we have to figure out is how much ferrite costs.
Here is a speaker from Parts Express, a cheap brand made by Eminence I believe, which has a 70 ounce magnet yet which retails for under $18.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-274
It is not being sold as an Original Equipment Manufacturer closeout, or as part of a sale. So we can assume, I think, that is the actual price, complete with profit margin.
On the basis of this, how much can a 70 ounce magnet actually cost a manufacturer? Two dollars at the most?
I have read that the magnet is the most expensive part of a speaker, that most of the other parts are built around it. If 70 ounces of magnet costs two bucks, (just an estimate), then an Alnico magnet should cost about $12 or so. For the equivalent magnetic force of a 70 ounce magnet.
If these conclusions are correct, it would seem to me that Alnico magnetic speakers should be only a little more than ferrite speakers. Am I correct on this?
Hi Kelticwizard,
Omniex driver looks like a Davis Acoustics' custom product (at least basket is Davis'). It is made for hi-fi just as are Supravox, Triangle and some Davis drivers with "accordion" surrounds.
Pictured is Cleveland's version (replacement) of Altec 416 in Onkens, but although their drivers look like Altecs they have different parameters!
regards
Vuki
Omniex driver looks like a Davis Acoustics' custom product (at least basket is Davis'). It is made for hi-fi just as are Supravox, Triangle and some Davis drivers with "accordion" surrounds.
Pictured is Cleveland's version (replacement) of Altec 416 in Onkens, but although their drivers look like Altecs they have different parameters!
regards
Vuki
sreten said:
Originally posted by sreten
Speaker weighs 5.5 lbs. 70oz = 4.4 lbs.
I'd say we are looking at the total magnet
structure weight including the pole pieces.
A good observation.
Looking around quickly, it seems that the magnet weight is about 30% of the total weight of the speaker.
33% of 5.5 lbs = 1.83 lbs = 29.3 ounces.
So if the magnet in that speaker costs two bucks, (just guessing), a 40 ounce magnet should cost about $2.73. Multiply by six and
the Alnico should cost about $16.38. Call it $16 for short.
I realize the above is based completely on rough estimates and supposition. Anyone who has information on the actual price of a workable 40 ounce magnet for speakers, please jump in.
It just seems to me that Alnico speakers, all things taken into account, should not be that much more expensive than the ferrite. There is a difference, but not that huge.
This is a nice chart: http://www.magstar.com/chartmaterials.html
I cant find any cost info as everyone does custom work.
I cant find any cost info as everyone does custom work.
reply
I've got this strange speaker an oval speaker of about 4x6 inches with an Alnico magnet, I think[a blue coloured metal]. But has a strange screw going through the pole piece and connected to a large washer instead of a dustcap.
I got the speakers out of an old valve wireless so it's probably a 1940's -1960's speaker.
And it's rated something pathetic like 0.5 w
I've got this strange speaker an oval speaker of about 4x6 inches with an Alnico magnet, I think[a blue coloured metal]. But has a strange screw going through the pole piece and connected to a large washer instead of a dustcap.
I got the speakers out of an old valve wireless so it's probably a 1940's -1960's speaker.
And it's rated something pathetic like 0.5 w
Re: reply
Can you post a picture?
The screw in the middle is likely just a hld-down for a spider inside the voice coil instead of outside -- i've really only seen it in tweeters -- but 4 x 6 was used as mid-tweeter sometimes. A wild guess based on the basket color is that these is an IREL (made in Italy)
dave
Bull said:
Can you post a picture?
The screw in the middle is likely just a hld-down for a spider inside the voice coil instead of outside -- i've really only seen it in tweeters -- but 4 x 6 was used as mid-tweeter sometimes. A wild guess based on the basket color is that these is an IREL (made in Italy)
dave
Attachments
Davis Drivers
I build these speaker using Davis Drivers about 6 years ago.
Woofers are DAVIS 20MC8A 8" CARBON
The mids are DAVIS 13KLV5A 5" Kevlar Midbass
Tweeters are Scan Speaks 9500
The cabinet for the woofers is a bass reflex and the mid are in a seal enclosure.
I build these speaker using Davis Drivers about 6 years ago.
Woofers are DAVIS 20MC8A 8" CARBON
The mids are DAVIS 13KLV5A 5" Kevlar Midbass
Tweeters are Scan Speaks 9500
The cabinet for the woofers is a bass reflex and the mid are in a seal enclosure.
Attachments
I called up Master Magnetics for some prices on some ring magnets a little while ago.
These were for Grade 5 ceramic, which I gather is a typical speaker grade.
In orders of 100 pieces, price per individual magnet:
2.29 lbs, (37 oz): $6 and change.
4.7 lbs, (75 oz): $14 and change.
So that is just under $0.19 an ounce.
I am guessing that since 100 pieces is a small quantity, that large quantities might run you 25% less. Just an assumption. So let's call it $0.15 an ounce.
Using markp's scale of alnico being six times as expensive per unit of magnetic force as ceramic, an alnico magnet equivalent for a speaker should cost about $0.90 per ounce. In other words, a midrange that would use a 25 oz ceramic magnet can use an alnico magnet costing $22.50 for the equivalent force using alnico.
Since the ceramic 25 oz magnet would cost $3.75, the difference would be $18.75. That is assuming that the differences in pole piece maching costs, etc., are not a big factor.
Of course, the way markup works, the increase in magnet costs increases the value of the whole speaker, which then gets increased 3X, 5X, or whatever.
This is just to give a rough estimate of the actual difference between alnico and ceramic manufacturing costs. The huge disparity in costs between alnico and ceramic drivers are not due to to the differences in the magnet material. That is not to say the cost is not justified by something else in the speaker, only that the money is not going to the alnico.
These were for Grade 5 ceramic, which I gather is a typical speaker grade.
In orders of 100 pieces, price per individual magnet:
2.29 lbs, (37 oz): $6 and change.
4.7 lbs, (75 oz): $14 and change.
So that is just under $0.19 an ounce.
I am guessing that since 100 pieces is a small quantity, that large quantities might run you 25% less. Just an assumption. So let's call it $0.15 an ounce.
Using markp's scale of alnico being six times as expensive per unit of magnetic force as ceramic, an alnico magnet equivalent for a speaker should cost about $0.90 per ounce. In other words, a midrange that would use a 25 oz ceramic magnet can use an alnico magnet costing $22.50 for the equivalent force using alnico.
Since the ceramic 25 oz magnet would cost $3.75, the difference would be $18.75. That is assuming that the differences in pole piece maching costs, etc., are not a big factor.
Of course, the way markup works, the increase in magnet costs increases the value of the whole speaker, which then gets increased 3X, 5X, or whatever.
This is just to give a rough estimate of the actual difference between alnico and ceramic manufacturing costs. The huge disparity in costs between alnico and ceramic drivers are not due to to the differences in the magnet material. That is not to say the cost is not justified by something else in the speaker, only that the money is not going to the alnico.
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