INCREDIBLE 12" woofer-midrange SE friendly, lowest distortion-2khz...MUST READ!!!! - diyAudio
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Old 12th September 2003, 07:08 PM   #1
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Talking INCREDIBLE 12" woofer-midrange SE friendly, lowest distortion-2khz...MUST READ!!!!

Stephen from TC Sounds (one of the largest woofer distributers/manufacturers in the world) has proposed to build a woofer if 50 people buy it. There must be 50 people that will buy the drivers or he cannot make it.

It can be anything we want it to be. So I'm here to say that he claims he can make a driver that is (my ideal driver):

12"
Multiple copper rings to keep distortion down big time.
Distortion as low or lower than Seas Excel all the way up to 2khz!!! (that's right, similar/lower distortion in the midrange where it is necessary for accurate sound).
High sensitivity=95db/1watt or greater.
Phase plug a possibility.
Xmax much greater than the typical high sensitivity drivers.
FR from 20-2khz with lowest distortion possible (I bring up Seas Excel because it has been tested and is proven by sound to human ears as the lowest distortion/most accurate driver in existence).
Cone material=Aluminum or Paper.
QTS should be .5 or higher for sealed box or dipole applications.

Anyone want in? It sounds like a miracle to me, but this is what I've wanted to have for years and I know it is possible. Think about what Dan Wiggins recently proposed with his 16mm xmax 6.5" driver that also has flat fR-7khz AND lower distortion numbers than the Seas Excel (I think we may have a new generation coming here folks!!!)...

I and a few others are in. We need more to commit. Take a chance, you might treat yourself to the best sound you can get, PERIOD.

Think of it this way, a 12" driver with the transparency/accuracy of a Seas Excel W18 AND that gives you high sensitivity/greater x-max(and similar FR...well, except this driver will go to 20hz!).

Too good to be true? I and a few others are willing to wager on it. Hopefully we can get total of 50 that are needed. Go to http://www.madisound.com and see the posts there.

Thanks for reading!
Mike

P.S. Sorry to sound like I'm in the advertising business and selling a junk product, but these people at TC are experts in the field and I know they communicate with the best (likely Dan has dealt with them to do his 6.5" driver). There's a LOT in the commercial/other audio worlds we do not see (read what Dan said about how his stuff offered to DIY is nothing compared to what he builds for manufacturers). Dan Wiggins is from http://www.adireaudio.com in case those do not know.
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Old 12th September 2003, 07:38 PM   #2
Romy is offline Romy  United States
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Mike,

Unfortunately we have to be careful with the phrases “best sound you can get, PERIOD”.

First of all your requirements are already contradict something, which would describe the proposed driver as “just a good driver”, not to mention “the best”. Second, I can give you a long list of audio products (including the turntables, phonostages, magnetic, compression drivers, cone drivers, speakers enclosures, records and so on and so on…) that today is imposable to see successfully manufactured COMMERCIALLY just because we have lost people and knowledge that might build them. I know it perhaps sounds unreasonably pessimistic but it still remains to be my believe (that is based on what I personally experienced).

I am not saying that the contemporary engineering is completely impotent but at the state when a “solution” gets converted into a “product’ the underling idea of the “solution” unfortunately ends.

Rgs,
The Cat PhD
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Old 12th September 2003, 07:47 PM   #3
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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A similar idea has sufaced here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...177#post232177

although we were discussing 15" drivers, and I think general opinion is that 20 hz isn't required- slightly under 40 might give adaquate bass and less distortion that high xmax tend to have.
upper between 1500 and 2 k is fine. The trick is that you can trade off all these parameters to improve the specs and sound.
YOU Can't have it all!!!!!

I think people would need to know more - I'm off to madisound....
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Old 12th September 2003, 09:38 PM   #4
Arx is offline Arx  Canada
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Default Easier said than done.

While we're at it, Why don't I manufacture some drivers. If I can get 10 people to go in on it(Regardless of cost), I'll Build Some nice 12" Drivers, Ultra stiff cones, free of breakup. XMAX in the inches, insane power handling, yada yada yada. Problem is you'll need a couple kilowatts to drive them, and several kilobucks to buy them.

There's always tradeoffs.

Regardless of materials you use, Stiffer means heavier, heavier means hard to accellerate at higher frequencies, meaning more power needed to do it. Lighter cone will mean better efficiency, but also probably going to have more distortion problems from cone breakup etc.

So it's always a comprimise, with the materials available, at least.

We'll never have a "Perfect" driver until we have a cone material that's infinitely light, infinirely rigid, and have a way to make voice coils to match.

If it were that easy to make a driver that impressive, with a minimum build of 50, why wouldn't anyone else have done it already?

Sounds to me like they're just going to slap together all the nifty features you see on newer drivers into one. Maybe it'll sound good, but I don't think it's that simple. I haven't listened to a seas excel, but if it's really that good a driver, I doubt that a bigass subwoofer type design will compete in the higher frequencies.
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Old 12th September 2003, 09:45 PM   #5
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To summarize the discussion on Madisound,
it's either a better 'Lambda TD' clone
such as.....
http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html

or monster xmax woofer, both designs either 12" or 15".

Either of the two designs has it's own niche application,
I like both types of woofers.


Disclaimer:
The word better above is subjective of course.
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Old 13th September 2003, 01:33 AM   #6
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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Yeah, they can't seem to decide what they are getting.


Here's what I want:
A decent 15" driver that covers say 37 to 1500 hz flat
in a box no bigger that 150 liters (say 4 or 5 cu ft)
neodymium for easy shipping, cast frame.
96 dB efficiency 8 ohms
about $200 max
MUST SOUND GREAT!!

Most people that want something like this have to go for a pro driver, but it seems all pro drivers are biased heavily towards high power handling. We don't need that, so maybe we can trade that for another more desireable perameter. For instance, the pro 15" seldom are flat to below 45 hz. As I mentioned, I'd prefer a little under 40.

Eminence will also make drivers with a minimum of 50 people (100 drivers) They will even help design it, but the 50 people need to agree on what they want!

In your defense, to the argument of:
OK if it is so easy why don't they already do it?

This reinterest in large efficient drivers is still not part of the mainstream audio market, even though we DIY people have been onto it for a while. So maybe the driver makers need to be convinced there is a market for this sort of thing.
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Old 13th September 2003, 02:09 AM   #7
Romy is offline Romy  United States
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Default Re: Easier said than done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arx
While we're at it, Why don't I manufacture some drivers. If I can get 10 people to go in on it(Regardless of cost), I'll Build Some nice 12" Drivers, Ultra stiff cones, free of breakup. XMAX in the inches, insane power handling, yada yada yada. Problem is you'll need a couple kilowatts to drive them, and several kilobucks to buy them.
Yep, this it one of the reasons why all those contemporary speakers of the individual overwhelmed with faulty super-duper audio knowledge-prejudices sound like "yada yada yada"…

The REAL 12" drivers, that actually produced tonal integrity, musicality and a proper phase randomonization, were designed very much opposite: with a super low excursion, super light diaphragm, with a super stiff suspension and with …. intentional frequency-dependant break-up zones.

I do not know who you are but from what you said I can see how you drivers will be played: with 2000W PP SS animal-sounding amp that inject into Music the electronic thermodynamic garbage, with a ****-loaded resonant band-aids in passive driver chain, heavily EQed, response over-dumped, notched and so on and so on and so on. Ah, did I mentioned a wonderful port to conform with so-called high-end-approved bass?

Kind regards,
Romy the Cat
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Old 13th September 2003, 02:51 AM   #8
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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Dear Mr. Romy

I have to agree with you about what is important in a driver, although I'm happy to admit that I don't know much about the subject. I think Arx was also trying to make the point that it isn't easy, he was being facetious.

The way you write, it is hard to tell who you were speaking to

I think there are people on this website that understand what you are referring to. There is a growing realization that drivers like the old Altecs had a lot going for them although maybe you don't like Altecs either, perhaps you can mention some older drivers that do the good things you are talking about.
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Old 13th September 2003, 03:16 AM   #9
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Stephen should just build the 12-inchers just for the sake of showing people that it can be done, because everyone I've seen seems more interested in putting down the idea than actually being interested in seeing if modern driver technology can pull this off.
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Old 13th September 2003, 03:49 AM   #10
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Variac;

The driver you seek fits what I was
seeking last year.

The best fit I found was this.
http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TD15H.html

It's been a long journey to collect
eight of these with Apollo motor,
the price I paid was around $360 ea.
on sale, now the price is $479.

My order is still being fullfilled due to
'circumstances' of Nick (Lambda) running
the business part time now with plans
for closure. People that seeketh Lambda
should h ave placed their orders in the beginning
of the 2003. It seems there is still
inventory of product, but you have to
call to see what is left.

Anyways, this woofer is pretty sweet
in a 4 ft^3 box tuned to 35hz, sounds
great full range (even though I will
only use it low pass 500hz), the xmax
is reasonable at 10mm one way,
the sensitivity is pretty decent at
94db 2.83v/1m.

The clincher was the very good sonics
playing full range.

Even the 'single faraday' motor would
be cool since the price is more affordable.

My concern looking forward was...
this unique woofer will be history and
what is the alternative if I want
to do some future designs ? I'm lost
for a solution, so a second source
for a similar woofer would be cool.
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