Please tell me that's totally wrong...
I'm searching for a solution to a reasonably good quality multi-way speaker that would give me bass without having to add a subwofer. I'm a hater of typical "home theater" setup with only high hisses and boomy bass like all of my friends and neighbors got, and they're so proud to pollute my ears with their $1500 5.1 system playing as loud as possible, at 10% THD. I'm into stereo music, 2-channels, no sub, no rubbish "surround" sound. Just rock-solid non artificially-delayed sound. My options are quite limited as the trend is to have subs. Each product line of speaker companies recommends having a sub added. Are they getting lazy making good speakers or what? Or they're making more money by selling more boxes? I guess both...
I'm 40 now, and I remember at the times where we had plenty of choices of 3 and 4 way speakers, they were delivering bass... Maybe not as well tuned and controlled as it could be these days, but hey, we had bass without subs!
I still wonder if I should build myself good speakers, or continue trying to find a manufacturer that believe subs are crap. They fundamentally need to have the same minding as me.
Floorstanders are my kind of enclosures. I'm bored by the bookshelf and slim towers. They may deliver precision in the mids and highs, but hell they all lack bottom... no subs I want!!
I don't want to reinvent the wheel; a building solution could be the MagnaCumLaude project. But wait... what about the Cerwin-Vega XLS-215? How br00tal do they look HAHAHA! Ok maybe overkill as my living room is only 14'x16'.
I feel I'm cought in a no-sub = no-bass spiral... This aint true, isn't it? I must be stuck in a nightmare or something...
Heeelp!!!!
Thanks.
Martin.
I'm searching for a solution to a reasonably good quality multi-way speaker that would give me bass without having to add a subwofer. I'm a hater of typical "home theater" setup with only high hisses and boomy bass like all of my friends and neighbors got, and they're so proud to pollute my ears with their $1500 5.1 system playing as loud as possible, at 10% THD. I'm into stereo music, 2-channels, no sub, no rubbish "surround" sound. Just rock-solid non artificially-delayed sound. My options are quite limited as the trend is to have subs. Each product line of speaker companies recommends having a sub added. Are they getting lazy making good speakers or what? Or they're making more money by selling more boxes? I guess both...
I'm 40 now, and I remember at the times where we had plenty of choices of 3 and 4 way speakers, they were delivering bass... Maybe not as well tuned and controlled as it could be these days, but hey, we had bass without subs!
I still wonder if I should build myself good speakers, or continue trying to find a manufacturer that believe subs are crap. They fundamentally need to have the same minding as me.
Floorstanders are my kind of enclosures. I'm bored by the bookshelf and slim towers. They may deliver precision in the mids and highs, but hell they all lack bottom... no subs I want!!
I don't want to reinvent the wheel; a building solution could be the MagnaCumLaude project. But wait... what about the Cerwin-Vega XLS-215? How br00tal do they look HAHAHA! Ok maybe overkill as my living room is only 14'x16'.
I feel I'm cought in a no-sub = no-bass spiral... This aint true, isn't it? I must be stuck in a nightmare or something...
Heeelp!!!!
Thanks.
Martin.
By not forcing two smaller speakers to reproduce bass below 40hz, you can allow real transducers to belt out smooth response at LF. All the research shows that for accurate bass reproduction you most likely want multiple subwoofers globally EQ'd flat.
Subwoofers won't sound boomy or artificial if you know how to set things up well.
It will also allow you to use higher sensitivity woofers on your mains, allowing for stronger dynamic range.
the key word is "believe" - IE guided by faith not supported by research and testing, and biased by improper setup and integration.
A floorstander capable of the dynamic range and extension depth is a tall order, an yet will be as prone to room modes as any other speaker.
Let's define your goals clearly... from what I can tell is that your goal is
" A Passive Full Range Floorstanding Loudspeaker"
An irrational goal, but not a unique one either. There's plenty of 3-ways out there that will have the visceral impact you're looking for, though their bass accuracy will be at the mercy of the room and their sensitivity won't be phenominal. I do wonder why you're so against subs though. I'm building a 2-way with a 15" woofer and i'm willing to accept that if I want powerful dynamics in the midbass (100hz - 250hz) I have to sacrifice the deepest octaves and let 18" long throw drivers handle that, and spread multiples around the room so you actually get smooth bass not dictated by the room.
DOing is passively is also a big issue. it basically means you need a woofer capable of handling from 20hz to 300+ hz smoothly... it's a tall order. Acoustic Elegance has a variant of the TD12H that covers that range, but it isn't all too sensitive. That's where I would start though.
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Klipschorn Floorstanding Speaker | Klipsch
That should do it--they are very large but if you like the sound, the Klipschorn is a very attractive speaker. If you go a bit nuts with the bass, put a high pass filter at around 30Hz to keep the cone intact. Years ago a buddy of mine had the LaScalas--he cried when he blew the woofer...
The monster Cerwin Vegas would be the more party type speaker...
You are right, the big JBLs, Infinities, Polk Audios etc etc etc are gone. I'm thinking big speakers might be coming back, the big old monsters are showing up in garages and a new generation is being exposed to giants of yore--the little cube junk just can't compare.
That should do it--they are very large but if you like the sound, the Klipschorn is a very attractive speaker. If you go a bit nuts with the bass, put a high pass filter at around 30Hz to keep the cone intact. Years ago a buddy of mine had the LaScalas--he cried when he blew the woofer...
The monster Cerwin Vegas would be the more party type speaker...
You are right, the big JBLs, Infinities, Polk Audios etc etc etc are gone. I'm thinking big speakers might be coming back, the big old monsters are showing up in garages and a new generation is being exposed to giants of yore--the little cube junk just can't compare.
Seperate boxes for woofers (or subwoofers) do have some advantages in more freedom of packagings, placements, designs, and more uniform in room response if there're 3 or more.
Even in a pair of stereo big tower type of speakers, it's also good to have seperate boxes for woofers. Less vibrating interations with those fragile mid-high drivers.
Even in a pair of stereo big tower type of speakers, it's also good to have seperate boxes for woofers. Less vibrating interations with those fragile mid-high drivers.
I can see what you mean about home theatre subs and miniature full range cubes etc. There is also a good reason to use subs and it has absolutely nothing to do with money, spousal acceptance or convenience. It is a room thing, and therefore has nothing to do with the size of your main speakers.
By the way, there are a number of good reasons to have large floorstanding main speakers as well.
By the way, there are a number of good reasons to have large floorstanding main speakers as well.
I believe you can get really great bass from single floor standers if they're done properly, but IMO it's easier to do with separate subs just because it seems easier to tune from a positioning standpoint. Subs will tend to sound their best in different places from where your main speakers sound best, so having them in different cabinets offers more placement flexibility.
The 1 note bass and bright hash of treble you hear when you walk into a best buy is a product of cheap design pandering to the masses. The average consumer seems less interested in producing all 5 strings of an electric bass smoothly and more interested in "amg, explosunz!" I think you can build something much, much better, regardless of whether it's a 4 way with subwoofers built in, or a 2/3 way with separate subs.
The 1 note bass and bright hash of treble you hear when you walk into a best buy is a product of cheap design pandering to the masses. The average consumer seems less interested in producing all 5 strings of an electric bass smoothly and more interested in "amg, explosunz!" I think you can build something much, much better, regardless of whether it's a 4 way with subwoofers built in, or a 2/3 way with separate subs.
>>> they're so proud to pollute my ears with their $1500 5.1 system playing as loud as possible...
LOL, i know plenty of those people. I was in the Sony store by me recently and they are touting very slim speakers hanging from the wall along with a sub. I plucked one from the wall (it was hanging from one screw) and waved it around like a Harry Potter wand before putting it back onto the screw head. They do make sound. But they do not make satisfying sound.
Back in the 70s and 80s I don't remember seeing too many sat/sub systems. Infinity made something interesting called the Infintesimal (i think). But large floorstanders from AR, ADS, Klipsch, Infinity, Polk, Genesis, JBL, Ohm, and many others (what a great time for audiophiles!) incorporated large woofers for satisfying bass. Remember the old AR 9 with two side 12" woofers? And I remember when large subwoofers (Velodyne) were used to add the lowest octaves of bass to what would already be considered 'full range' speakers.
If you don't like what's available in stores you can consider DIY. If so inclined, you will be building all sorts of speaker projects (some more satisfying than others) for years like many on this forum. Then you can serve up your bass any way you like
LOL, i know plenty of those people. I was in the Sony store by me recently and they are touting very slim speakers hanging from the wall along with a sub. I plucked one from the wall (it was hanging from one screw) and waved it around like a Harry Potter wand before putting it back onto the screw head. They do make sound. But they do not make satisfying sound.
Back in the 70s and 80s I don't remember seeing too many sat/sub systems. Infinity made something interesting called the Infintesimal (i think). But large floorstanders from AR, ADS, Klipsch, Infinity, Polk, Genesis, JBL, Ohm, and many others (what a great time for audiophiles!) incorporated large woofers for satisfying bass. Remember the old AR 9 with two side 12" woofers? And I remember when large subwoofers (Velodyne) were used to add the lowest octaves of bass to what would already be considered 'full range' speakers.
If you don't like what's available in stores you can consider DIY. If so inclined, you will be building all sorts of speaker projects (some more satisfying than others) for years like many on this forum. Then you can serve up your bass any way you like
I highly recommend this kit from madisound, no need for sub
Zaph|Audio SB12.3 ~ SB Acoustics 12", Dual Midrange, 3-Way: Madisound Speaker Store
Zaph|Audio SB12.3 ~ SB Acoustics 12", Dual Midrange, 3-Way: Madisound Speaker Store
<opinion warning>
Those are probably a great speaker, but with an f3 of 37 cycles, I'm not sure "no need" is what I'd say on the subwoofer issue, but that's just me.
</opinion warning>
I guess it all depends on what type of music you like to listen to, for fear of starting another "how low is low enough" debate.
Certainly DIY is worth pursuing if you want to buid your own. However there are lots of manufacturers that supply full size speakers for surround sound.
If you want affordable and big the Kef Q900's are pretty decent. lots of bang for buck, 8 inch bass and bass/mid drivers, 1.5 inch tweeters. Decent motor systems.
Surprisingly these sound quite fleet footed in the right room, despite using passive radiators. A nicely tuned speaker, Kef have managed to make metal cones and 1st order crossovers to play nice too (using their own cone resonance damping technique), impressive for the money.
Also you can get a centre speaker in the same range, theQ600c. That speaker is big enough to hold several sets of sat speakers in that one cab alone.
Q900 f3 at 32hz.
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hifi_series/q_series/fact_sheets/Floorstanding/Q900/index.html
If you want affordable and big the Kef Q900's are pretty decent. lots of bang for buck, 8 inch bass and bass/mid drivers, 1.5 inch tweeters. Decent motor systems.
Surprisingly these sound quite fleet footed in the right room, despite using passive radiators. A nicely tuned speaker, Kef have managed to make metal cones and 1st order crossovers to play nice too (using their own cone resonance damping technique), impressive for the money.
Also you can get a centre speaker in the same range, theQ600c. That speaker is big enough to hold several sets of sat speakers in that one cab alone.
Q900 f3 at 32hz.
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hifi_series/q_series/fact_sheets/Floorstanding/Q900/index.html
you are correct. That phrase is wrong.
All speakers reproduce bass frequencies. It's a matter of how far down those frequencies have rolled off relative to the rest of the frequency range.
But if you want high levels of low frequency information to come out matching similarly high levels of mid frequency and high frequency information then you need big speakers.
Big speakers cost lot's of money.
There is a limited market for big expensive speakers. That makes them even more expensive.
The buyer (us, you and me) determines what becomes available to them/ourselves. If we don't buy the big expensive speakers then fewer manufacturers will bother to design and retail them.
If you have the space and the budget then bass from floor standers is available.
I think that some of the earliest sub/sat systems that I remember clearly were from ACI and Cambridge. (there were obviously others, but these I remember better). These were quite decent compared to other systems at the time.
With the advent of HT and mass marketing of N.1 (N=5,6,7,etc...) systems, there is clearly a lot of crap out there (as pointed out earlier). Unfortunately the market has driven manufactures away from designing nice integrated stereo systems in favor of systems that support however many channels are currently in fashion. And the more channels you have, the smaller you want all those sats to be, lest you end up without any space to place them.
A couple points to the original poster:
a) realize that in general what constitutes a subwoofer today would have been called a woofer back in the 70's and 80's. To some extent, this is now an over-used marketing term although it does have some historical/technical definition wrt. theater and pro-audio.
b) there are systems out there that use integrated woofers and produce good response down to what some people would consider the sub-woofer range (eg. <30Hz). There are just a lot fewer of them than there used to be.
c) although we may not remember it that clearly, there were as many crappy sounding full-range systems back in the 70s and 80s as there are crappy HT systems today. Integrated woofers are no guaranty of quality sound.
d) there are some some quite nice sounding HT systems out there. In general you will not see them being pushed by your typical sales associate down at Best Buy. They also need to be set up correctly at the listening end - sub placement, crossover frequency and volume levels all need to be tweaked once you get them in the house.
Good luck,
-bill
With the advent of HT and mass marketing of N.1 (N=5,6,7,etc...) systems, there is clearly a lot of crap out there (as pointed out earlier). Unfortunately the market has driven manufactures away from designing nice integrated stereo systems in favor of systems that support however many channels are currently in fashion. And the more channels you have, the smaller you want all those sats to be, lest you end up without any space to place them.
A couple points to the original poster:
a) realize that in general what constitutes a subwoofer today would have been called a woofer back in the 70's and 80's. To some extent, this is now an over-used marketing term although it does have some historical/technical definition wrt. theater and pro-audio.
b) there are systems out there that use integrated woofers and produce good response down to what some people would consider the sub-woofer range (eg. <30Hz). There are just a lot fewer of them than there used to be.
c) although we may not remember it that clearly, there were as many crappy sounding full-range systems back in the 70s and 80s as there are crappy HT systems today. Integrated woofers are no guaranty of quality sound.
d) there are some some quite nice sounding HT systems out there. In general you will not see them being pushed by your typical sales associate down at Best Buy. They also need to be set up correctly at the listening end - sub placement, crossover frequency and volume levels all need to be tweaked once you get them in the house.
Good luck,
-bill
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