Apollo Construction Diary

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diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
I'd expect it was causing the panels to vibrate/resonate, and basically acting like speakers!

I suspect so too. Maybe one day I'll get the chance to replace with something more substantial but for it serves its purpose now that the noisy stuff has been moved into the new place.

You may well find that the dust enclosure will trap a lot of the sound pressure, such that it won't be too bad outside.

I hope so. If it does turn out to be excessive then there's way to control it further.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
Ant, why can't you turn the CNC so the main doors open towards the garage door?

Then you can waltz a big sheet straight in.

That way is more efficient for loading and unloading but it also take up more space as you have to move it into the middle of the room so as to make sure you can still get in at the back.

I've tried all sorts of which ways using the floor plan and what I've got is the most efficient use of the space if not the most practical.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
The cnc has been delayed because the control box still needs wiring and then testing. Its now going to be sometime next week. Shame, I was looking forward to playing.

They've sent a few more images which shows the machine is pretty much complete.

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I've also designed a simple mitre saw trolley constructed out of 40x40mm alu extrusion. Should be an easy but very sturdy build. The whole thing is on casters too because with a small workspace its important to keep things flexible for when you need that little extra room.

Parts sourced from these guys: Valuframe - Aluminium Extrusions > Aluminium Profile > Aluminium Extrusion > Aluminium Profiles >Aluminium Profile Systems

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Sorry to hear the machine is delayed. Looking good though. Well, the machine looks good. You'd think with that level of tech they'd be able to afford a decent camera to take pics to send to customers :D.

Trolley looks good - and thanks for the link - I've been looking for a decent supplier of extrusion material. Are the prices ok?
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
Sorry to hear the machine is delayed. Looking good though. Well, the machine looks good. You'd think with that level of tech they'd be able to afford a decent camera to take pics to send to customers :D.

Thanks. Oh and I blame those damn smart phones, the camera's in the lot of them are junk :D

Trolley looks good - and thanks for the link - I've been looking for a decent supplier of extrusion material. Are the prices ok?

From the few places I found online they were the cheapest. You have to sign up on their website to get the price list and catalogue. There's a lot of stuff in there but to give you an idea the 40x40mm is £8.55+VAT per meter and the 80x80mm is £28.59+VAT/m. They'll cut the stuff to length(£0.99-£2.95 a cut) and even tap holes(£2.34 a go) although this is expensive if your having more than a few cuts done and would work out much cheaper if you do it yourself.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
I've been thinking some more about keeping down the dust and from reading around the web I don't think my current extractor is going to be up to the job. Its rated at 1000m3/hour and was recommended by the place that sold me the table saw. But reading in between the lines its never going to supply that air flow and so within a ducted system, and if you took care to minimise leaks, you'd expect that figure to drop by around a quarter. That isn't much at all when your talking about a table saw or router. Folks with fancy manometers are recommending upwards of 1500m3/hour actual air flow for table saws - about twice as much as I currently have.

Another complication I've stumbled upon is the table saw is ideally suited to a high volume low pressure type of extractor. These are generally the blower models and move lots of air but more gently. And the router definitely needs to get stuff away as fast possible so a low volume high pressure vacuum type extractor would be better.

Axminster have a large range of machines so I rang them up and asked for their advice on what that would be suitable for both the table and the router. They came back at me with this suggestion:

Buy Numatic NVD750 Workshop Vacuum Extractor from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK

However I'm somewhat confused. The specs state air flow is rated at 350m3/hour although the pressure would be much higher than my current unit because that particular model is a vacuum type rather than a blower. It looks fine for the router but surely not for the table saw? I'm confused :confused:

I figure this machine I already have isn't going to pick enough up for my liking but instead of going out and risk buying another turkey could those in the know suggest a suitable unit for what I'm wanting to do?

Budget is £400 but would be great to come in under this.

Edit: Relatively low noise would be big bonus too
 
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If you've never read it before, Bill Penz's site might be of help: Bill's Cyclone Dust Collection Research - Home Page The executive summary is something like: small dust collectors that don't move enough air work for chip collection but leave fine dust in the air which can cause serious health problems.

I'm eventually planning on buying one of the Clearview cyclones for my router. We had a pair of them in the shop at my last job and they were nice. They're around triple the air flow of your current model, but also more expensive it looks like.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
Hi John

The cyclone type do look ideal however they're way beyond my budget. They start at £1500 and go up to £££. I've got £400 max and risk loosing valuable man appendage if I spend more :eek:

This is about the cheapest I could find new:

Buy Axminster Industrial Series UB-2200VECK Cyclone Extractor from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK

Maybe something will come up on ebay but its not really a common item and I could be waiting a long time.

I do understand what your saying about fine dust getting kicked back out the filters and into the air. Its a real problem with MDF. But you can get fine filters that work down to as little as 0.2microns which will prevent that.
 
I understand the budget limit - that's why I don't have one already. I have a small cyclone plumbed into my shop vac for my cnc at the moment. The cyclone keeps the shop vac from clogging from the fine mdf dust, but I still wear a respirator when I do anything that will generate dust. I'm not an expert, but iirc if you read that site I linked he's saying the real problem is the fine dust is not collected when you create it if you don't have enough air flow so even if you have the fine filters, they don't help. It's still floating around in the air and can be for hours or longer after you've stopped working.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
Yeah I'm the same John. I always wear a good sealing face mask when cutting even if I've had a vac attempting suck up the dust. MDF is just really nasty like that. That's what I'm trying to avoid this time around and its definitely possible but maybe not with my budget.

I see you can get things like this:

Buy Jet AFS-500 Air Filtration System from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK

Which will filter the air to remove fine particles but the problem is its a much better idea to catch the dust as its created rather than later on when its floating around the workspace. Your bound to end up still breathing some of it in.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
Looking at the options for my budget there's two possibly three routes I can take.

First is a vacuum type extractor. Lots of pressure but relative low air flow. These are like high powered versions of a home vacuum cleaner really. This particular one has 2x 1200w motors and will be very good with the cnc but I'm unsure about the performance with the table saw. Bonus with this type is they rarely kick out any dust because of the way they work. Downside is efficiency lowers quickly as the filters become clogged and I suspect that will happen often with MDF meaning extra maintenance.

Buy Numatic NVD750 Workshop Vacuum Extractor from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK

Next up is a more powerful version of what I already have. A regular chip extractor. These are great for the table saw but aren't recommended for cnc. Maybe getting one with silly air flow like 3900m3/h will offset the fact that these aren't great when it comes to high pressure extraction. Downside with this type is they tend to kick out a lot of the fine stuff unless a suitable filter cartridge add on is used and this causes the price to rise.

Buy Axminster FM300SA Extractor and 2 x Filter Cartridges - PACKAGE DEAL from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK

Final option is to wait patiently and hope a cyclone extractor comes up on ebay for about £400. Not holding my breath here :)

To me it looks like whichever way I go, whether option 1 or 2, I'm going to be compromising and won't have the ideal system. In a perfect world it'd be the cyclone but I've spent so much on the cnc, table saw and building the workshop that I've got little left.

Brain is frazzled so will sit on this for awhile and give it a good think.
 
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Typing wiv me thumbs on a fone so expect mistakes...

I use one of these: Hallvalue Ltd t/a Poolewood Machinery Dust - Extractor, Fox F50-843

With a dust shoe on the cnc router it catches all the visible dust. Pulls well through ducting too. Also good on bandsaw, but not tested with my mitre saw.

John's spot on about filters and cyclones. I dump the dust to an outside bin and don't use the bags or filters (just the motor and impeller unit). Pentz's site has cyclone plans for free. The only reason I've not built one is height: I don't have enough space!

Oh, also now using a Trend Airshield Pro. Highly recommended and way better than a dust mask.
 
I'm using a old vacuum cleaner.

I wear my respirator.

It works fine. It was free.

Prove that the one you have doesn't work, before you buy something else.

The problem is that without expensive equipment you can't test the air to show that dust levels are dangerous - but a decent amount of evidence would indicate it's likely to be if you're cutting MDF with anything other than amazingly good extraction and filtering (or separation if you have a cyclone).
 
That's why you wear your respirator.

Indeed. TBH I think I've gotten myself pretty sensitised to MDF dust over the years - to the point that even working in the garage results in me getting a day or so of 'flu' like symptoms (sore throat, itchy eyes, blocked nose). I moved from using an MDF rated rubber half face mask to the Trend powered unit, and whilst it's early days, I don't seem to get any of the symptoms now.

The filtration is better (with less leaks - I never found the rubber masks to fit well) but I do wonder if the fact also it stops dust getting in your eyes makes a big difference.

I notice that a lot of pro shops (and even videos I see from people running home CNC machines) that many people use a good enclosure, and don't run an extractor whilst cutting. It certainly reduces the power bill - and noise. I guess if your enclosure is good enough then you can just clean up at the end. As I can't fit an enclosure round mine, I have to use the dust shoe + extractor all the time, and therefore need good air flow.

BTW On the subject of moving air (but this time for clamping) I finally stumped up the cash for one of these: Big Mach Vacuum Hold-Down Work Table - Woodworking Tools Precision Engineered from M.POWER. Not done anything with it yet, but will report if it works OK.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2004
BTW On the subject of moving air (but this time for clamping) I finally stumped up the cash for one of these: Big Mach Vacuum Hold-Down Work Table - Woodworking Tools Precision Engineered from M.POWER. Not done anything with it yet, but will report if it works OK.

I've been looking at the kit version of that so I could build my own. The idea seems like a winner and simple to construct too but the trick will be if the rubber seals can hold a vacuum without leaks. I reckon mdf, whilst cheap, might not make the best bed here. Its dusty by nature and the rubber gasket might not stick to it very well. A non porous surface like a plastic would make a better foundation for a bed.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on.
 
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