Hi everyone.
I'm having trouble deciding caps for my passive OB's crossover. The problem is, that for the lower point I need about 156µF worth of capacitance for the midrange. Currently I have this bunch of odd PP caps (Solen fast, Audyn MKP QS, Obbligato) I have made the total value of. Also an Arcotronics MKP motor cap. The values range from 4,7 to 47µF. No small bypasses.
The question is this: would I be better of buying a single quality cap to make the whole 156µF, or paralleling a little smaller caps of the same quality? Has anyone had any first hand experience on the difference here? eg. 155µF Clarity Cap ESA would do the trick just fine, but would I be better off buying 3 * 47µF and a 15µF and paralleling them? At least ESL & ESR would drop, in theory...
I'm having trouble deciding caps for my passive OB's crossover. The problem is, that for the lower point I need about 156µF worth of capacitance for the midrange. Currently I have this bunch of odd PP caps (Solen fast, Audyn MKP QS, Obbligato) I have made the total value of. Also an Arcotronics MKP motor cap. The values range from 4,7 to 47µF. No small bypasses.
The question is this: would I be better of buying a single quality cap to make the whole 156µF, or paralleling a little smaller caps of the same quality? Has anyone had any first hand experience on the difference here? eg. 155µF Clarity Cap ESA would do the trick just fine, but would I be better off buying 3 * 47µF and a 15µF and paralleling them? At least ESL & ESR would drop, in theory...
Hmm... Maybe I should try it out, then document the comparison here... I would also presume, that the parallel caps might even be better, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong a priori. Then again, putting hundreds of euros in caps just for the fun of it isn't something I currently can afford. To really do such a test, even only an open listening, all of the caps should of course be of the same variety and same voltage rating.
The Obbligato oil filled caps sold by Acoustic Dimension look very promising. Anyone tried these?
The Obbligato oil filled caps sold by Acoustic Dimension look very promising. Anyone tried these?
I have used the Obbligatos both in my 'Volks-OB':
My 'Volks-OB' Mission Accomplished and in the 'MJAO':
MJAO G 098 - The Anagram - Crossover revision
They perform exactly as JLOP says, very good, nothing to compare, I think, at the price.
Tony Gee has them in his capacitor test: Humble Homemade Hifi
I bought mine from DIY Hi-Fi Supply: Obbligato Film Oil Caps | Diy HiFi Supply
/Erling
My 'Volks-OB' Mission Accomplished and in the 'MJAO':
MJAO G 098 - The Anagram - Crossover revision
They perform exactly as JLOP says, very good, nothing to compare, I think, at the price.
Tony Gee has them in his capacitor test: Humble Homemade Hifi
I bought mine from DIY Hi-Fi Supply: Obbligato Film Oil Caps | Diy HiFi Supply
/Erling
On the basis that 80uF is approx half the value you need, and readily available as a motor run film cap, I would buy a number of cheap 80uF film caps from ebay and measure for pairs that totalled 156uF (or near enough).
There are always tons of Ducati, ASC, GE polypropylene (with & without oil) caps on ebay and they are not expensive.
I'd rather buy 8x ebay motor run caps and measure all to find two closely matched pairs, than risk spending big bucks on expensive audiophile caps that often have terrible tolerences compared to standard industrial stuff (ther are exceptions, but these are rare).
Here are some nice ones to cosider:
DUCATI 80uf CAPACITOR MOTOR RUN 450v 80mfd | eBay
ASC High Capacitance Polypropylene Film 80uf / 330vac AC Filter Caps | eBay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mars-Mars...224864?pt=Air_Conditioner&hash=item5193c09d20
There are always tons of Ducati, ASC, GE polypropylene (with & without oil) caps on ebay and they are not expensive.
I'd rather buy 8x ebay motor run caps and measure all to find two closely matched pairs, than risk spending big bucks on expensive audiophile caps that often have terrible tolerences compared to standard industrial stuff (ther are exceptions, but these are rare).
Here are some nice ones to cosider:
DUCATI 80uf CAPACITOR MOTOR RUN 450v 80mfd | eBay
ASC High Capacitance Polypropylene Film 80uf / 330vac AC Filter Caps | eBay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mars-Mars...224864?pt=Air_Conditioner&hash=item5193c09d20
I have used the Obbligatos both in my 'Volks-OB':
My 'Volks-OB' Mission Accomplished and in the 'MJAO':
MJAO G 098 - The Anagram - Crossover revision
They perform exactly as JLOP says, very good, nothing to compare, I think, at the price.
Tony Gee has them in his capacitor test: Humble Homemade Hifi
I bought mine from DIY Hi-Fi Supply: Obbligato Film Oil Caps | Diy HiFi Supply
/Erling
I've used the dry type Obbligatos with good results in electronics, but in a crossover my experience is inconclusive, since the X/O was only partly with Obbligatos. They did make some improvement, but in a series crossover, all the caps should be the same. Any idea on how the oil type differs from the dry type? I've read T. Gee's page over and over again, but I like having second opinions, since these things are also matters of taste.
I appreciate your input, and for basic MKP's motor run caps seem to be quite adequate. But what I'm looking for now is something more "high end". In the aforementioned Tony Gee's cap test summary the Obbligato oil type receives a rating of 9, whereas the tried industrial types - oil or dry - fall between 6 and 7.6. Of course I know this is no official authority, but it's better than just saying "there's no difference between caps". And the price of those MKP in oil Obbligatos isn't exactly too high. They're about the same as those industrial types are.
I actually do think that at least some industrial types are very good caps in audio too. But not as good as the best specialised caps. The problem is to differentiate the overhyped and -priced crap from the real things. If I had infinite money (who would'nt wish for that...), I could just spend it away and just test everything. Maybe even learn something. Now I'm just trying to probe whether or not I should save some money buying a little cheaper or not. (Actually, the speaker is quite good as it is with the bundle of what-I-had-round -caps, but I'm just neurotic and want them all to be of the same type...)
Thank you! I think I'll take your advice on this, and try the oil types for the lower X/O-point. The price difference is quite much compared to not hearing the difference, so maybe my neurosis will be satisfied with the oil types. If they live up to expectations, they're actually quite cheap.
I do not remember the argument for it, but I saw that info online. Can be true but of course you have to investigate if it is. But often you have no choice since if you want good capacitors they are often expensive and you need to parallell to keep the cost down or getting the correct value.
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Hi Adolf,
I fully understand that you want the best solution - we all come to different decisions on these things. Thanks for your feedback.
Personally, I have spent time and money testing many many different caps (Jenson, Jupiter, Obbligato, Audyn, Russian KBG, Russian teflon, Russian Polystyrene, Epcos/Siemens MKV, ASC film, Shizuki film+oil and many more) and reached the conclusion that my preference is industrial film and oil for high value coupling. The Epcos/Siemens MKV caps are superb and better, to my ears, than Obbligato oils. I've not tried non-oil Obbligatos though. Russian KBG are also superb (the teflons and polystyrene are cleaner but with less added body to the sound, but not an option for the larger values you require).
The position I have reached is that I'm happy using MKV caps for crossovers and don't see any ROI spending more on potentially better but much more expensive audiophile caps. For large value film caps the difference in cost is typically of a scale that would allow for any number of other bigger improvements (upgraded inductors, cabling, transformers etc.). Of course I'd love to learn about something better than MKV for the same money.
I try to look holistically at my investment in components and avoid spending huge amounts for small improvements in one area, when I could gain far more spending the same additional money on other parts of the chain.
I'll be interested to hear what you and others recommend - always keen to learn.
I fully understand that you want the best solution - we all come to different decisions on these things. Thanks for your feedback.
Personally, I have spent time and money testing many many different caps (Jenson, Jupiter, Obbligato, Audyn, Russian KBG, Russian teflon, Russian Polystyrene, Epcos/Siemens MKV, ASC film, Shizuki film+oil and many more) and reached the conclusion that my preference is industrial film and oil for high value coupling. The Epcos/Siemens MKV caps are superb and better, to my ears, than Obbligato oils. I've not tried non-oil Obbligatos though. Russian KBG are also superb (the teflons and polystyrene are cleaner but with less added body to the sound, but not an option for the larger values you require).
The position I have reached is that I'm happy using MKV caps for crossovers and don't see any ROI spending more on potentially better but much more expensive audiophile caps. For large value film caps the difference in cost is typically of a scale that would allow for any number of other bigger improvements (upgraded inductors, cabling, transformers etc.). Of course I'd love to learn about something better than MKV for the same money.
I try to look holistically at my investment in components and avoid spending huge amounts for small improvements in one area, when I could gain far more spending the same additional money on other parts of the chain.
I'll be interested to hear what you and others recommend - always keen to learn.
Sharpi,
You got me interested. Could you describe the perceived difference between Obbligato and the MKV? I've tried some Epcos film in oil in the past, and they were'nt bad at all. Actually, I have a bag of them stashed somewhere (no idea where, everything's still a bit messy after I moved in July), but they're all 3,3 µF. Too small, that is.
I've tried the Obbligato Gold Premium, or whatever it was called exactly, in electronics, and for the money they really shine. I have'nt had the courage to go and spend enough, though, to get them for my crossover yet. In coupling applications, though, they're really good. Very transparent, without any harshness that for example an Orange Drop might have. They mostly just get out of the way. I did a comparison between orange drops and the obbligatos just a couple of months ago in a push-pull tube amplifier (a pair of monoblocks). You did'nt have to be in the sweet spot to hear the difference. They were much more three dimensional and gave better definition between instruments. After the Audyn Pluses and Mundorfs I've tried, I strongly recommend these in coupling applications.
Of course it always boils down to the question of personal preferences and also what goes with the drivers. I too like to try to find stellar results with "beer budget" money. My current project is with all Eminence drivers, and with their high efficiency, I fear - and have also experienced - that second class crossover components can really be heard through. When I fed them through polyester, the sound changed almost beyond belief. It felt like downgrading from a pair of 6000 euros a pair speakers to a pair of entry level floorstanders. Definition, soundstage, everything of that was gone. They still retained their dynamics, though. Albeit with no slap nor slam.
I've had prolonged arguments with a friend, sometimes face to face, sometimes over the phone. He tends to think, that buying the best components should give you the best results, whereas I keep saying "95% of the sound is in the topology". This is usually in the field of electronics, where I'm more at home. Thus, it seems we're travelling on much the same path, actually. It's just that I've had such bad moments with bad caps, that - as I stated earlier - have grown a slight neurosis over caps.
You got me interested. Could you describe the perceived difference between Obbligato and the MKV? I've tried some Epcos film in oil in the past, and they were'nt bad at all. Actually, I have a bag of them stashed somewhere (no idea where, everything's still a bit messy after I moved in July), but they're all 3,3 µF. Too small, that is.
I've tried the Obbligato Gold Premium, or whatever it was called exactly, in electronics, and for the money they really shine. I have'nt had the courage to go and spend enough, though, to get them for my crossover yet. In coupling applications, though, they're really good. Very transparent, without any harshness that for example an Orange Drop might have. They mostly just get out of the way. I did a comparison between orange drops and the obbligatos just a couple of months ago in a push-pull tube amplifier (a pair of monoblocks). You did'nt have to be in the sweet spot to hear the difference. They were much more three dimensional and gave better definition between instruments. After the Audyn Pluses and Mundorfs I've tried, I strongly recommend these in coupling applications.
Of course it always boils down to the question of personal preferences and also what goes with the drivers. I too like to try to find stellar results with "beer budget" money. My current project is with all Eminence drivers, and with their high efficiency, I fear - and have also experienced - that second class crossover components can really be heard through. When I fed them through polyester, the sound changed almost beyond belief. It felt like downgrading from a pair of 6000 euros a pair speakers to a pair of entry level floorstanders. Definition, soundstage, everything of that was gone. They still retained their dynamics, though. Albeit with no slap nor slam.
I've had prolonged arguments with a friend, sometimes face to face, sometimes over the phone. He tends to think, that buying the best components should give you the best results, whereas I keep saying "95% of the sound is in the topology". This is usually in the field of electronics, where I'm more at home. Thus, it seems we're travelling on much the same path, actually. It's just that I've had such bad moments with bad caps, that - as I stated earlier - have grown a slight neurosis over caps.
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