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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 12th February 2012, 03:59 PM   #301
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Or even more than 8. Depends how much one is willing to do. Forget about Ambisonics, recording techniques are not going to change. What might change is how sound is stored. We need to get rid of systems with a fixed number of channels. And some work is done in that direction. With such a new approach the user can choose the playback system that suits him best.
Yes, recording techniques are not going to change. That fact also disables wide spread usage of multichannel in home audio reproduction.

Ambisonics is great for storing data. Only 4 channels (1st order Ambisonics) can store the whole sound field at the listening point. In Ambisonics the number of data channels is independent of the number of speakers used in reproduction. When reading pro recording and audio forums, one get's the impression that Ambisonics is much more common in recording and studio work than generally known. But practically no-one is using Ambisonics at home reproduction, though.


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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
It's a fact that the sweetspot is small and all recorded music is really just made for a single seat. Doesn't matter if stereo or multichannel. A center channel helps. By the way, a single stereo speaker works by the same principle. The only difference is that there are no real side speakers but wall reflections.
Obviously you haven't followed the discussion very closely, or by some reason are dismissing the fact that the side wall room reflections produced by the SSS are in great extend decorrelated compared to the real speakers. This is the reason for the increased spaciousness that conventional stereo is lacking. Another feature of this decorrelation is increased ASW. And still another feature is lack of speaker localisation, which could occur if real speakers were used.
So one cannot say side wall reflections and a real speaker therein are identical without any difference.


- Elias
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Old 12th February 2012, 04:19 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Yes, recording techniques are not going to change. That fact also disables wide spread usage of multichannel in home audio reproduction.
Sorry but multichannel is in widespread usage.

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Obviously you haven't followed the discussion very closely, or by some reason are dismissing the fact that the side wall room reflections produced by the SSS are in great extend decorrelated compared to the real speakers. This is the reason for the increased spaciousness that conventional stereo is lacking. Another feature of this decorrelation is increased ASW. And still another feature is lack of speaker localisation, which could occur if real speakers were used.
So one cannot say side wall reflections and a real speaker therein are identical without any difference.


- Elias
It just didn't work for me, see Stereophonic Sound from a Single Loudspeaker
I got better results by simply setting up two additional speakers at 60. This increased ASW, which in combination with LEV forms "spaciousness".
It's also easier to control the amount of spaciousness with those two wide speakers. Increased ASW isn't appropriate for all types of content.
Power handling might also be slightly better than using smallish fullrange drivers. We also didn't talk about diffraction effects yet...

Last edited by markus76; 12th February 2012 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 12th February 2012, 05:27 PM   #303
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Sorry but multichannel is in widespread usage.
I don't know anyone in person who's using multichannel for home audio.



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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
It just didn't work for me, see Stereophonic Sound from a Single Loudspeaker
I got better results by simply setting up two additional speakers at 60. This increased ASW, which in combination with LEV forms "spaciousness".
It's also easier to control the amount of spaciousness with those two wide speakers. Increased ASW isn't appropriate for all types of content.
Power handling might also be slightly better than using smallish fullrange drivers. We also didn't talk about diffraction effects yet...
Cannot argue about taste and personal preference.

I would say non existent ASW is not appropriate for most types of music. This is where conventional stereo fails, no ASW.

If I would need more power handling (which I don't at the moment for home use) I would propably try one of these
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/6CX200NdE.pdf

About diffraction.. That is exactly the reason I stated earlier of one possible explanation why your miniature proto failed. Too much of diffraction, no baffle gained directivity. The directivity pattern must be steered according the stereo panning. If the SSS speaker is totally an omni it does not work.


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Old 12th February 2012, 05:34 PM   #304
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About diffraction.. That is exactly the reason I stated earlier of one possible explanation why your miniature proto failed. Too much of diffraction, no baffle gained directivity. The directivity pattern must be steered according the stereo panning. If the SSS speaker is totally an omni it does not work.


- Elias
What would the ideal baffle look like?
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Old 12th February 2012, 05:59 PM   #305
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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What would the ideal baffle look like?
Most likely the ideal is yet to be discovered.

In my current set up side panels are 40*33 cm. Other sizes could work too, as long as it is not too small.

If you would measure 360 deg horisontal directivity plot in stereo side panned signal condition of your miniature proto, you would propably find out the directivity steering is lacking in the midrange. That could explain your comment "everything is in the middle" because it acts mostly like mono omni.


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Old 12th February 2012, 07:03 PM   #306
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
when TV is off I use it for background music in my living room too, and then, funny, people keep asking and asking where are the speakers?
You must stop teasing innocent people !

It may shock their habits on stereo triangle
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Old 12th February 2012, 07:53 PM   #307
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In my current set up side panels are 40*33 cm. Other sizes could work too, as long as it is not too small.
What about the size of the front baffle?
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Old 13th February 2012, 01:33 AM   #308
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What would the ideal baffle look like?
I think it would work best with large side panels and side drivers located closer to the rear than the front. This would increase side directivity and lower the frequency of baffle step (where it becomes audible in front).

I would make the center panel as narrow as driver permits, unless greater enclosure volume is needed. The enclosure could be as tall as needed to provide interior volume.

Also would recommend either well-rounded corners or absorption on the faces to reduce diffraction off front corners of the enclosure.

This may not address every concern mentioned, but it should work better than incarnations to date.

-- Mark
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Old 15th February 2012, 06:54 AM   #309
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After the first test, here is a normal and fearless evolution of the "SSS applied on a multi speaker group". Now the central speaker is also a five 12" array, curved baffle, same wiring, same drivers, but horizontal.

I will not enter in the details of the probable finger like lobes, but there is an happy consequence. In despite of the center element and of the matrix that for the common sense would reduce the stereo extension, there is a great increase of the maximal width. For the connoisseurs, this is not because the tweeters excite the reflections during some sharp transients. This comes only from the low mid bass. On some records, a double bass or a male choir can be projected at 60 degs on a side ( the base of the listening triangle is 5 meters and the listener is at 6 meters, it's not because of being the nose on the speakers). In some synthetic productions, this localization can even reach the 90 degs but this time with the help of the high frequencies.

Without the SSS, these extremes are each reduced of 30 degs.

Too wide is not realistic, I know, but this extra width happens for instance on some Haendel oratorios where it is said that the massive choirs are in the sides chapels of the cathedral, then it's not a fantasy but a better restitution.

God save the...Matrix !
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Old 15th February 2012, 08:13 AM   #310
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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Awesome !

And you keep scaring people here !
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