Design idea:
MTM with
Beyma TPL-150 with wave guide above 1,2khz
Volt 2500.4 or PHL 3020 below 1,2khz
Digmoda DDC 520 plate amp and 2-way digital crossover
Two separate chambers for the midwoofers, each chamber 40l, with port on the back pannel ; 7,5cm diameter x 13cm. Tuned to 40hz.
size of the speakers h=90cm , w= 43cm , d=50cm
total height with stands : 145cm
production cost :
Beyma TPL 150 retail us$ 480,00
Beyma TPL-150 pleated diaphragm tweeter - Beyma TPL-150 - Beyma TPL-150 high frequency tweeter. Beyma TPL-150 high frequency tweeter is available here at US Speaker. Beyma TPL-150 speaker components.
Volt BM2500.4 retail 190 pounds x 1,6 = us$ 300,00 x 2 = us$ 600,00
Volt BM2500.4 10in 200W Mid-Bass Studio Range Chassis
Digmoda DDC 520 retail us$ 900,00
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/DDC520-digmoda.pdf
cabinet with stands : ?? ~ us$ 1500,00 ??
shipping and import taxes not included.
total us$ 3500,00 each
comments ?
MTM with
Beyma TPL-150 with wave guide above 1,2khz
Volt 2500.4 or PHL 3020 below 1,2khz
Digmoda DDC 520 plate amp and 2-way digital crossover
Two separate chambers for the midwoofers, each chamber 40l, with port on the back pannel ; 7,5cm diameter x 13cm. Tuned to 40hz.
size of the speakers h=90cm , w= 43cm , d=50cm
total height with stands : 145cm
production cost :
Beyma TPL 150 retail us$ 480,00
Beyma TPL-150 pleated diaphragm tweeter - Beyma TPL-150 - Beyma TPL-150 high frequency tweeter. Beyma TPL-150 high frequency tweeter is available here at US Speaker. Beyma TPL-150 speaker components.
Volt BM2500.4 retail 190 pounds x 1,6 = us$ 300,00 x 2 = us$ 600,00
Volt BM2500.4 10in 200W Mid-Bass Studio Range Chassis
Digmoda DDC 520 retail us$ 900,00
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/DDC520-digmoda.pdf
cabinet with stands : ?? ~ us$ 1500,00 ??
shipping and import taxes not included.
total us$ 3500,00 each
comments ?
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Tough to sell:
A. an expensive loudspeaker,
B. an active loudspeaker,
c. a loudspeaker that large with so little low freq. extension
The looks are decent, but I'm not fond of the stand. If I were emulating an aesthetic it wouldn't be Magico of old (or new). I prefer something more like this in a stand-mount:
AAD 7001 bookshelf speaker by Phil Jones
Perhaps Anodized black on the front and back panels, and possibly metalic grey paint for the sides, top, and bottom. It's just "cleaner" looking to me.
A. an expensive loudspeaker,
B. an active loudspeaker,
c. a loudspeaker that large with so little low freq. extension
The looks are decent, but I'm not fond of the stand. If I were emulating an aesthetic it wouldn't be Magico of old (or new). I prefer something more like this in a stand-mount:
AAD 7001 bookshelf speaker by Phil Jones
Perhaps Anodized black on the front and back panels, and possibly metalic grey paint for the sides, top, and bottom. It's just "cleaner" looking to me.
Imposing, a real presence in a listening room. I think the drivers offer a lot of potential.
If they are to be 145 cm high, I would investigate the use of the volume around the stand to be devoted to low frequency extension. A tuning of 40 hz with an Fs of 32 seems to me to be wasteful...go lower.
One of the aspects of the Magico design is the horizontal, laminar construction. My preference is for vertical grain orientation.
Just sayin'
If they are to be 145 cm high, I would investigate the use of the volume around the stand to be devoted to low frequency extension. A tuning of 40 hz with an Fs of 32 seems to me to be wasteful...go lower.
One of the aspects of the Magico design is the horizontal, laminar construction. My preference is for vertical grain orientation.
Just sayin'
Imposing, a real presence in a listening room. I think the drivers offer a lot of potential.
If they are to be 145 cm high, I would investigate the use of the volume around the stand to be devoted to low frequency extension. A tuning of 40 hz with an Fs of 32 seems to me to be wasteful...go lower.
One of the aspects of the Magico design is the horizontal, laminar construction. My preference is for vertical grain orientation.
Just sayin'
hi Ed
a backloaded design would improve bass response, and a rectangular cabinet would be much easyer to build :
I like it! I would investigate removing the small rear chamber of the TPL and putting it in a larger airtight chamber built into the cabinet. Then stuff it well with some Bonded Logic. You should get an even cleaner sound than we get at the studio on our monitors using the TPL. The stock chamber it a piece of junk and much too small to have room for a decent amount of absorption of the rear wave.
Greg
Greg
Attachments
hi Greg
some time ago i did take off the rear chamber of my Radian 950pb, to see if i would hear any difference, but honestly, i did not. So i don't know if take off the rear chamber of the Beyma would bring a perceivable difference. But if i realise above design or similar, where the back is encapsulated, i would eventually give a try and see.... who knows.... !
hi Ed
a backloaded design would improve bass response, and a rectangular cabinet would be much easyer to build :
A back-loaded horn (transmission line) offers something different.
From a consumer point of view that's a definite +.
Objectively however there are three "problems" here with the design:
1. Back-horns are *usually* operated higher in freq. and it tends to produce audible problems.
2. Impedance variation is often horrendous without proper damping in the line.
3. An inverted design (contraction rather than expansion), will provide much better low freq. extension for the given volume.
I personally think the design is a LOT more viable, but if you are serious about it definitely purchase a license from Martin King for his worksheets (..and if you use it and decide to go commercial, update the license to commercial.)
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Quite possibly.
The line itself also doesn't look long enough.
But it's all just a guess unless you have done some modeling?
You will have a double hump and poor bass, due to the different diver location if you back load.
The first design is much better IMO, the rear port firing model ....
hi Wayne
i would not backload both mid/woofers, but only the lower one. The second would be sealed. I've made already a backloaded with Radian 8" coax, identical to this design, and bass does extremely well, its tight and goes quit deep.
AudioVoice Piccolo finished - Audio Voice Acoustics
Carlos, the owner, made some measurements , but i'll see them only next week.
Hi angloitacare,
I don't meant to crash the party, but I tried something very similar to this and it didn't turn out well. Your number 1 enemy will be the poor vertical response caused by the severe comb filtering introduced by the massive C-C spacing on the 10" drivers. I was using the TD10M drivers with a NeoPro5i, but that's pretty much the same setup as you're looking at.
Take a look at the second graph in this post to see what I mean:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...pro5i-ribbon-build-thread-13.html#post2687123
You might think at a glance that 1200Hz is low enough to mitigate that, but the first massive dip in my design started to show at 400Hz when you got over 30 degrees off axis in the vertical plane. Things only got uglier from there.
The other problem I had was getting decent bottom end out of a midbass driver, while still keeping enough efficiency to work well with the ribbon. The NeoPro5i is an incredible driver, and its greatest fault is that there isn't anything else out there that can keep up, which makes it difficult to implement in a design unless you're willing to throw away all that efficiency. The same applies to the Beyma driver.
My latest thought was to pair the NeoPro5i with a single RCF MR10N301 which is also a little over 100dB @ 2.83V/1M, but even that only gets you down to 300Hz, and good luck finding anything that can go from 300 down to 30Hz with that kind of sensitivity.
I think a carefully designed TMM is probably the best way to go if you really want a pair of 10" drivers with a ribbon or AMT.
Regards,
Owen
I don't meant to crash the party, but I tried something very similar to this and it didn't turn out well. Your number 1 enemy will be the poor vertical response caused by the severe comb filtering introduced by the massive C-C spacing on the 10" drivers. I was using the TD10M drivers with a NeoPro5i, but that's pretty much the same setup as you're looking at.
Take a look at the second graph in this post to see what I mean:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...pro5i-ribbon-build-thread-13.html#post2687123
You might think at a glance that 1200Hz is low enough to mitigate that, but the first massive dip in my design started to show at 400Hz when you got over 30 degrees off axis in the vertical plane. Things only got uglier from there.
The other problem I had was getting decent bottom end out of a midbass driver, while still keeping enough efficiency to work well with the ribbon. The NeoPro5i is an incredible driver, and its greatest fault is that there isn't anything else out there that can keep up, which makes it difficult to implement in a design unless you're willing to throw away all that efficiency. The same applies to the Beyma driver.
My latest thought was to pair the NeoPro5i with a single RCF MR10N301 which is also a little over 100dB @ 2.83V/1M, but even that only gets you down to 300Hz, and good luck finding anything that can go from 300 down to 30Hz with that kind of sensitivity.
I think a carefully designed TMM is probably the best way to go if you really want a pair of 10" drivers with a ribbon or AMT.
Regards,
Owen
hi Owen
your input is much aprechiated. Because the Volt BM2500.4 has only 92db/wm, i thought to use the Digmoda module, which would make it much easyer for crossover tweaking and tuning, and eventually equalizing bass response, if too weak.
Using the 3 way Digmoda module, it would be possible to use the low driver up to 400hz, and the second one, in sealed cabinet, up to crossover of the Beyma.
Interestingly, the Germans made some listening experiments, and to them, using both drivers up to 1,2khz did sound almost the same, as to cross one at 400hz. They did not feel cancellation was a problem.
You are right, its not easy to mate a Ribbon or ATM with a cone midrange, or horns at ~ 1khz. I am actually not satisfied with the combination of the lower 38" midrange horn / Fane Studio 8m, and the Beyma TPL-150.The horn sometimes sounds very forward, full, loud, big, organic an dynamic, while the Beyma sounds more laid back, rather thin, sweet and detailled - something, i realise improvement is possible, i just don't know yet, how. The most reasonable seems to me to try out a 10" direct radiator with high efficiency. The 10" PHL's with ~ 100db/wm are interesting.
http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5178#post5178
PHL 3451 frequency plot.
It would be a less compromise, use a dedicated woofer below ~ 200hz.
How about a PHL 3450 in the midrange, and a Audio Technology 10C77 for bass ?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/10C77.htm
Angelo
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Hi Angelo,
Your conclusion at the bottom with the Beyma, PHL and AT drivers is pretty much what I think is an ideal setup for use with a ribbon or AMT.
If you are looking at high efficiency midbass drivers, do take a close look at the RCF MR10N301. I have one kicking around that I hope to measure in the next little while, and the build quality is superb. I also tested max SPL levels and was able to hit 124dB at less than 1% distortion which is pretty astonishing.
For me, if I combine the NeoPro5i with the RCF driver, I would have a system that could be crossed over at roughly 1400-1500Hz 4th order and maintain a real 100dB 1W/1M efficiency from 250-40,000kHz. As I mentioned above though, the real problem is filling in the bottom end. I think it would be best to have the ribbon on top, the midrange immediately below with the ribbon recessed and the woofer flange mounted on top of the tweeter flage to minimize C-C spacing. Below that I was hoping to run a pair of 10" bass driver from 30Hz up to 250Hz, but I can't seem to find anything with decent efficiency and decent bass output. I would welcome any suggestions!
The best contender so far is the 18sound 10NW900, but even a pair of those would not meet the 100dB requirement over most of the bass range.
Cheers,
Owen
Your conclusion at the bottom with the Beyma, PHL and AT drivers is pretty much what I think is an ideal setup for use with a ribbon or AMT.
If you are looking at high efficiency midbass drivers, do take a close look at the RCF MR10N301. I have one kicking around that I hope to measure in the next little while, and the build quality is superb. I also tested max SPL levels and was able to hit 124dB at less than 1% distortion which is pretty astonishing.
For me, if I combine the NeoPro5i with the RCF driver, I would have a system that could be crossed over at roughly 1400-1500Hz 4th order and maintain a real 100dB 1W/1M efficiency from 250-40,000kHz. As I mentioned above though, the real problem is filling in the bottom end. I think it would be best to have the ribbon on top, the midrange immediately below with the ribbon recessed and the woofer flange mounted on top of the tweeter flage to minimize C-C spacing. Below that I was hoping to run a pair of 10" bass driver from 30Hz up to 250Hz, but I can't seem to find anything with decent efficiency and decent bass output. I would welcome any suggestions!
The best contender so far is the 18sound 10NW900, but even a pair of those would not meet the 100dB requirement over most of the bass range.
Cheers,
Owen
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