Hi all,
I would like to keep this first build as simple as possible..... but not too much.
At first I was going to find some designs that have been tried and tested but I cant help but wanting to do my own the way I want with the components I want.
All in all I've been aiming at a DIY build of the Swans M1
Swan M1 DIY
buuut the builder says it costs him $550 per pair..... and I've seen the Swan M1s from $450-500 on Audiogon so I kind of decided not to go with those but something close. I also wanted to have a better base from the monitor.
I have been looking long and hard and I have been aiming at HiVi's drivers and their speakers. One of my coworkers has Swan Diva floor standers and they used the T28 tweeter and Their Magnesium (golden looking) drivers and it sounded really good, but I felt it was to high or metal like or a bit edgy but with really good bass (midrange).
I want a really clear monitor speaker that delivers good image and it can dissapear from the room and can still pack a good punch 🙂
here is what I have been looking at.
Tweeters:
Bohlender Graebener Neo3-PDRW Planar Tweeter $57 Datasheet
Hi-Vi RT1.3WE Ribbon Tweeter $37.85
Price and freq response
Woofers
Hi-Vi L6-4R 6" Woven Kevlar Cone - 4 ohm $39.25
Price and freq resp
Hi-ViF6 Bass-Midrange
info and freq resp
The L6-4R is used in Swan's higher end speakers M3 spec here and some version of the RT1.3 tweeter. Those woofers and tweeters are also used in the M6F and the RM600F list of models
Right now I am looking at using Hi-Vi L6-4R for the woofer and the Hi-Vi RT1.3WE Ribbon Tweeter. The responses on these two drivers seem very flat and nice compared to other's I've seen. Can they work together or the crossover is going to be a pain?
honorable mention:
Hi-Vi RT1C-A Isodynamic Tweeter, 120mm, 94dB here
Hi-Vi M6N Bass-Midrange Overview of M6N Drivers_HiVi,Inc
I would like to keep this first build as simple as possible..... but not too much.
At first I was going to find some designs that have been tried and tested but I cant help but wanting to do my own the way I want with the components I want.
All in all I've been aiming at a DIY build of the Swans M1
Swan M1 DIY
buuut the builder says it costs him $550 per pair..... and I've seen the Swan M1s from $450-500 on Audiogon so I kind of decided not to go with those but something close. I also wanted to have a better base from the monitor.
I have been looking long and hard and I have been aiming at HiVi's drivers and their speakers. One of my coworkers has Swan Diva floor standers and they used the T28 tweeter and Their Magnesium (golden looking) drivers and it sounded really good, but I felt it was to high or metal like or a bit edgy but with really good bass (midrange).
I want a really clear monitor speaker that delivers good image and it can dissapear from the room and can still pack a good punch 🙂
here is what I have been looking at.
Tweeters:
Bohlender Graebener Neo3-PDRW Planar Tweeter $57 Datasheet
Hi-Vi RT1.3WE Ribbon Tweeter $37.85
Price and freq response
Woofers
Hi-Vi L6-4R 6" Woven Kevlar Cone - 4 ohm $39.25
Price and freq resp
Hi-ViF6 Bass-Midrange
info and freq resp
The L6-4R is used in Swan's higher end speakers M3 spec here and some version of the RT1.3 tweeter. Those woofers and tweeters are also used in the M6F and the RM600F list of models
Right now I am looking at using Hi-Vi L6-4R for the woofer and the Hi-Vi RT1.3WE Ribbon Tweeter. The responses on these two drivers seem very flat and nice compared to other's I've seen. Can they work together or the crossover is going to be a pain?
honorable mention:
Hi-Vi RT1C-A Isodynamic Tweeter, 120mm, 94dB here
Hi-Vi M6N Bass-Midrange Overview of M6N Drivers_HiVi,Inc
Hi . 🙂
I really enjoyed the sound of a isodynamic tw ( Infinity's ) for a few years .
They are likely to be crossed at a 2nd order slope ,minimum .
Those Hivi tw are medium-high sensitivity , so they'll need some attenuation , as little woofers usually don't get over 90 dB , before the crossover , so after it and on the baffle
they will exhibit even -3 dB !! But that's not a problem ,since resistors are the solution to bring down tw's sensitivity .
I really enjoyed the sound of a isodynamic tw ( Infinity's ) for a few years .
They are likely to be crossed at a 2nd order slope ,minimum .
Those Hivi tw are medium-high sensitivity , so they'll need some attenuation , as little woofers usually don't get over 90 dB , before the crossover , so after it and on the baffle
they will exhibit even -3 dB !! But that's not a problem ,since resistors are the solution to bring down tw's sensitivity .
For a first build, perhaps try a full range driver design. 1 good quality speaker driver won't cost much.
Initially do not use filter components at all, and later you can experiment adding a few corrective components.
For example, while I've not heard it myself, the MarkAudio Alpair 10 is said to be quite excellent in small boxes such as the one you're aiming for.
Or, if you would put these compact speakers on stands, then you can just as well build a floor stander, for example a backloaded horn using an 8" Fostex FE206E speaker.
The above two suggestions may seem quite exotic, yet many people are happy with such configurations.
Initially do not use filter components at all, and later you can experiment adding a few corrective components.
For example, while I've not heard it myself, the MarkAudio Alpair 10 is said to be quite excellent in small boxes such as the one you're aiming for.
Or, if you would put these compact speakers on stands, then you can just as well build a floor stander, for example a backloaded horn using an 8" Fostex FE206E speaker.
The above two suggestions may seem quite exotic, yet many people are happy with such configurations.
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Looks like a good combination. It's not stated what the RT1.3WE lowest recommended crossover frq is but I can assume that it's similar to the RT1.3, which is at 2,500Hz.
This will be just at the end of the L6-4R. Can be done. It would be nice if the tweeter can be crossed lower at 2,000Hz. This will allow some room to locate the sweet spot.
The RT1C-A is a nice tweeter but not suitable. Lowest crossover is 4,500Hz.
I just bought 4 pieces of M6a. I believe the M6N is somewhat similar. They are meant for 3-way.
Good idea the BG Neo-3
As mid woofer what do think of this aluminium cone of peerles. Cross it second order 1800Hz 1,2mH 8,2uF(for the ribbon a superior Z Janzen). With neo3 used as dipole with a 3Ohm series resistor. So you get a 8Ohm 88db 1wmtr loudspeaker
Peerless 835025 6-1/2" Aluminum Cone HDS Woofer 264-1086
pdf this driver offer great linear extrusion over 5.3mm. -6dB 30Hz.
http://www.tymphany.com/files/HDS-P835025%20Rev2_0.pdf
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Alu cone wil combine good with the ribbon (I have a set of Swans RT1 wasn't better then the titanium 1" dome dsm25ffl I already had)
Crossing a ribbon isn't hard it is a nice flat impedance the woofer would need a compensation to control the rise of resistance HF. Then use a 4.7uF capacitor in series with 8.2Ohm parallel to the woofer. And at 7kHz we make a zobel 5.6uF bipolar and a 0.1mH coil in series you can ad no resistance or up to 8Ohm until you like it the zobel is also parralel to the woofer voice coil.
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I would not mind if in your first build the XO isn't right if you bought good drivers you can always change the filter when you know better. Or build something new with your old drivers closed,BR,TL.
- Yes I've been reading on designing the crossovers and the tweeters seem to be higher SPL than most midwoofers I am looking at so a -2 to -4db attenuation is needed with some resistors.
- also i would need to adjust the impedance no?
-I thought so too but I really want to understand how to do it and this will be the best way and I didnt like some combinations out there even though there is a lot. Some use really cheap drivers and some other use super expensive ones. There arent a lot of ribbon tweeter designs out there with the Neo3 or the 1.3W. And I've seen that the Hi-Vi drivers are really good and I like the reviews on the speakers I've selected.
- I will be simulating everything before the build. I dont want to measure but I will use the Manifacturor graphs for the SPL and Freq resp to design the xo and box.
- I've thought about it too, but there didn't seem to be any full range designs that were apealing to me. If I do I would want it to be like the Zu Omen or Druid Zu Audio | A Revolution in American HiFi
-I have been looking at this tho Tang Band W8-1808 8" Neodymium Full Range Driver and it looks impressive but I would like to make it a floor stander like the Zu Druid but I dont know if it will have enough punch and if i will be able to make the right chamber/cabinet for it because i've seen some pretty complex designs..... or I just need a box with braces and a port? If it is a full ranger I wouold like it to be floor standing up to my chest I guess.
- yeah I think I have seen designs using xo around 2k with the 1.3 or was it the Neo3. That is what I am concerned tho if they overlap good. The midpoint xo will only allow for about half an octave i guess but a lot of builds out there seem to be doing it.
-nice link btw, tnx
- That is a nice driver. I am still not familiar with all of the parameters of a speaker and what they mean. Why is 5.3mm extrusion a good thing? Usually I am looking at a flat frequency response and I determine that -6db rolloff from the average is where the driver begins to deteriorate... no?
-3kh high freqency is hard to cross, no? the Neo3 can handle it i guess. I like the low frequency but I dont know if the aluminium will give more metallic sound?
-I would like to see some reviews on the Peerless or in what speakers it is used.
- I will have to look into that driver
About the impedance , I'm little confused what others said . Like Helmut , who
says that the Neo3 plus a 3 Ohm resistor would make it a less sensible and more 'Ohmic' driver . But many others said that over the forum
I think it has to be seen from the amplifier side , i.e. load and path trough the less resistive circuit . The fact is that resistors are linear and speakers aren't;
Isodynamic and planars often offer a flat impedance along their working range .
I didn't mention these Tang Bands as I thought they were outside your price range. I have not heard them, but they should be very nice.
Now it is easier to find designs for its sister model W8-1772. For example, these two should be really good:
TT-2000
http://www.brinesacoustics.com/Pages/TB-20/Main.html
In the TT-2000, if you mount the speaker directly into the front baffle, then you can make it look passably Zu-like 🙂
Mr. Brines is an experienced and respected designer, and the $25 he asks for his plans is likely a very good investment. Do have a look at his other designs as well.
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Xmax = maximum linear extrusion of the motor in that range the drive force is linear with the signal. With low frequencies right above and below the BR tuning the driver makes the largest extrusion and that increases with loudness =power to the driver.
Older design drivers have a Xmax of 1-2mm so they will start to make distortion when power is above 2-10W.
Where the new bigger Xmax designs will still have low distortion. And still have good quality midrange what is important for your two way.
The roloff of the low frequency is the result of your loudspeaker volume and tuning of the BR-pipe to the thielesmall parameters. In this case -6dB wil be about 30Hz with port-gain in this small enclosure. You can not see this in the specification of a driver only the Midrange is shown in the graphic the basresponse you have to design with the right enclosure.
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Hi,
Take a look at : https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/zx-spectrum
and : Zaph|Audio
rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder
Take a look at : https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/zx-spectrum
and : Zaph|Audio
rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder
- I think this is to equalize the overall speaker SPL and make the two drivers, woofer and tweeter, the same load
- great find! thank you!
- well i can afford them but i rather build something cheaper for first build and I have a feeling that the internal enclosure might be more complex and I am not sure about a single driver, maybe in the future 🙂
- thanks for the explanation! I actually got it. So the right enclosure will help the driver reproduce better lower frequency response? Larger Xmax is an indication that the driver will be able to reproduce a better low freqency given the right enclosure.
- bingo!
Thank you for all those links! I have some of them but the ZX Spectrum project is what I am looking for!
I have picked my drivers and project now! It wll be the ZX Spectrum!
The drivers are from my original list and they are using the Neo3's which seem to be the better tweeter! The HiVi M6a is on sale at parts express for $26each and I just ordered the Neo3-PDRW new in box with face plates for $95. Although I would love to take the L6-4R I can do that a little later.
The ZX Spectrum has an enclosure and a xo that I can work with. I will also simulate with different software just to see if it matches the diy project.
Nice SPICE simulator I will check it out in Tina-TI
With more linear extrusion the voice coil will be better controlled by the motor at higher sound levels. So when you play louder you will still have low distorsion level.
Hi, I like a person who can see why I suggest stuff, saves a lot of time, you can't go wrong, rgds, sreten.
btw, the woofer is on sale
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1086
cheers
henry
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1086
cheers
henry
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