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Old 24th October 2011, 10:30 AM   #81
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@ Dynaudio4way

I'm sorry, but there are no magic numbers I can give you, as it is a passive crossover I use.

The enclousure is quite small, as I use the speaker only as top above 100Hz or 120Hz, depending on the sub I use.

The crossover frequency is at 1.1kHz, with an acoustical 18dB/oct slope on the low-mid and an acoustical slope somwhere between 18dB/oct or 24dB/oct on the tweeter, as it becomes steeper over the crossover region. Part of the EQing is done in the crossover, the rest is done with notch filter on low-mid and a broader EQ on the TPL. With that I get a pretty flat frequency response and great off axis behavior.

Faaker See is a really nice place to be, I hope you had a good time!


@ LineSource

Wow, that TangBand looks really nice! How does it sound?
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Old 24th October 2011, 11:58 AM   #82
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Hi LineSource,

The Tang Band’s graph does indeed look flatter over a wider range, but it has nowhere near the same output capabilities – so there’s absolutely no way I’d consider Tang Band W8-1808 hi-fi driver as a serious alternative to 18 Sound 8NMA610 pro driver in a very high output midrange application such as mine. So as to which is the best “dream driver” it’s horses for courses – as you can see comparing them both…

Tang Band W8-1808_______________18 Sound 8NMA610
8 inch cone_______________________8 inch cone
1.5 inch voice coil__________________3 inch voice coil
30 watts RMS_____________________400 watts RMS
93dBspl/W________________________104dBspl/W
107.8dBspl max (calc)______________130.0dBspl max (calc)
BL factor = 5.28 Tm________________BL factor = 31.0 Tm
Mms = 9.43g______________________Mms = 17g
BL/Mms ratio = 0.56________________BL/Mms ratio = 1.82
Qes = 0.66_______________________Qes = 0.28
Qts = 0.44________________________Qts = 0.23
Made in Tawain____________________Made in Italy

The 8NMA610 has a solid cast aluminium sealed back design, which means no enclosure panel resonances, and guaranteed optimum factory designed loading, plus the midrange cone is totally immune to the high pressure rear backwave from the 15 inch woofer working in the same enclosure, and it saves me the bother of building a separate wooden sub-chamber for the midrange which adds bulky mass and reduces my net internal cabinet volume.

Also, my 18 Sound drivers are not the stock 8NM610, but a special version 8NMA610 where the ‘A’ in the model name indicates 18 Sound’s Active Impedance Control (A.I.C.) transcoil technology. These model versions are not listed on 18 Sound’s website, and are more expensive than the standard models and very difficult to get hold of.
I think they’re the best midrange for very high SPL output, although I have various other midrange drivers that I really like too, including my Dynaudio 15W75 and Dynaudio D54AF, and also Eminence Alpha 6A (cheap but good! 7g Mms, BL=8Tm) although my favourite sound quality I own is the 6.5 inch Audax PR170ZO with Aerogel cone (6.2g Mms, BL=10Tm, 100 watts RMS, 99dBspl/W) – a real shame they discontinued it.

Hi Meister_gue,

Surely you must know what EQ you are applying(?), especially if you’ve actually worked to construct an electrical circuit with selected components to achieve it in hardware. Anyway, I’m not doubting that your system sounds nice to you, but I’m saying that my own experimental results so far don’t match your findings using identical drive units, and a scientific method or proof requires repeatable results that can be duplicated elsewhere.
If you do remember any more details about your EQ settings used to tame any harshness, I’d be interested in your data. I’ll try crossover at 1.1kHz next time, and I’ll try all possible combinations of 18dB or 24 dB slopes and Butterworth, Bessel or Linkwitz Riley curves or Linear Phase crossovers while doing A/B comparisons.
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Old 24th October 2011, 02:21 PM   #83
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@ Dynaudio4way:

PMed.

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Old 24th October 2011, 06:18 PM   #84
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hi guy's

my goal is to figure out a lower midrange driver to combine with the TPL150 for home use.

some candidates which might be interesting:

for 2 way :

MTM configuration :

Volt :

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/volt/b25001.pdf

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/volt/bm25004.pdf

3 way :

midlow:

Faital 10PR300

FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy

bass ?
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Old 25th October 2011, 12:44 AM   #85
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Default Volt drivers and TPL

Hi Angelo,

The Volt 2500.1 is a great low bass driver 25Hz up to about 125Hz, but it is not good much above 250Hz and certainly be way past its best by 1,000Hz.

The Volt 2500.4 is a great mid bass driver, I have used it in many designs, usually sealed or open baffle. Once I and even used it ported way back in the original " Vortex" two way by Wilmslow Audio.

A two way MTM with the Beyma TPL would on paper be really special... expensive but truely world class. I would wire the 8 Ohm Volts in parallel, this will bring their real world sensitivity up to around 94 dB.

If money were no object an open baffle ( VPL not U or H frame) line array of 6 ( 98 ish dB ) or even 8 (100 ish dB) of Volt 2500.4 on an acrylic baffle 400mm wide plus VPL wings, suspended by a stainless steel pole and wire frame would be on my wish list...!!
Back in the real world...
If you build the two way MTM, the only upgrade you would require would be to a matching world class crossover.
A battery powered DEQX with the digi out option, so you can use world class DACS and an A to D if you require any analog inputs, is the best I have used or heard.

I hope this helps and good luck, you are a great DIY role model, and I have great respect for you, always seeking perfection and willing to learn from experience...the hard way but the best way!!

Cheers

Derek.
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Old 25th October 2011, 09:50 AM   #86
Hennie is offline Hennie  South Africa
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Hi Derek,

What is the maximum crossover frequency you would recommend for the Volt 2500.4?
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Old 25th October 2011, 10:29 AM   #87
_henry_ is offline _henry_  Australia
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have u look at AE LAmbda td10M?

cheers
henry
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Old 25th October 2011, 10:46 AM   #88
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Wink Volt max crossover

Hi Hennie,

That depends... could be as low as 500Hz with a single Volt in a basic sealed or ported box with low order crossover slopes. Could be as high as 2,000Hz with an MTM in open baffle with 48dB slopes.

(1) Crossover slopes...the steeper the slope, the higher the crossover point can be. The minimum I use is 48dB per octave Linear phase.
(2) Loading on Volt... highest crossover point is open baffle, then you have zero box colourations and ghost echoes i.e. sound bouncing around inside the box and then being emitted back through the thin paper cone...out of phase...yeugh!
(1) Number of Volts i.e. single twin ( MTM ) or line array multiples. For each doubling of cone area you half the excursion, so 2, 4, 8 and 16(!) are the magic numbers. The lower the excursion the higher the crossover point can be. You also gain 3dB sensitivity with each doubling of the cone area ( not just with each additional driver) and you half the distortions when you half the excursion.

If you really go to town on the box construction you can reduce the box colourations a lot i.e. a good sealed box with curved walls layered Birch ply construction and very good internal dispersal / absorbing using fiberglass pads and foam wedges.
Same with a ported box but you will always have the sound coming out of the port being out of phase with the driver....Yeugh!

In most designs money is better spent on drivers than boxes...
More drivers and / or better quality drivers on a simple open baffle / suspension frame will generally sound much better than a killer box with one driver...Magico has got it wrong!! But great marketing of the Emperorís new clothes to all the deaf millionaires...

Hope the above helps

All the best

Derek.
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Old 25th October 2011, 11:14 AM   #89
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Mid Proraum Vertriebs-GmbH | Shop | AUDAX | AUDAX HM210Z10
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For BBMTM or BMT 95dBwmtr
Bas 2X studio bas beymay B12B100R 30Hz F3 and 98dB 1Wmtr 200liter enclosure.
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Old 25th October 2011, 12:48 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
Hi Angelo,

The Volt 2500.1 is a great low bass driver 25Hz up to about 125Hz, but it is not good much above 250Hz and certainly be way past its best by 1,000Hz.

The Volt 2500.4 is a great mid bass driver, I have used it in many designs, usually sealed or open baffle. Once I and even used it ported way back in the original " Vortex" two way by Wilmslow Audio.
hi Derek

is the 2500.1 better in the bass than the 2500.4 ? Would it in this case not been better to use one 2500.1 up to 250hz, and the 2500.4 up until crossover ?

Quote:
A two way MTM with the Beyma TPL would on paper be really special...
the Volt has the most attactive description on paper. What i most praise, is naturalness/neutrality, and dynamics. And both ingredients seem to be the strength of this model:

Quote:
The cone, linen surround and dome are critically matched and doped to ensure very low midband colouration. The result is analytical sound quality with a stunning dynamic range. The BM2500.4 is designed for use in two way nearfield studio monitors where accuracy and realism are essential.
That says it all, and makes this driver a top contender for a great sounding two way design.

John of AE speakers compares the Volt to his speakers:

12 " for lower midrange - upper bass

The volt drivers look ok, but looking at BM2500.4 the inductance is still .9mH, representative of not having a shorting ring. It appears nothing is done to lower inductance, linearize inductance, or eliminate flux modulation. This is a 92dB efficiency studio range driver. It would be comparable to our TD10X. The difference is we have 1/3 the inductance. Inductance is linear. Flux is fixed in the gap as it needs to be. We have 14mm Xmax vs 8mm and about 4x the real world power handling.

The 251.4 would compare more to our TD10M. Again the same things apply regarding linear inductance and flux modulation. We have .2mH inductance vs .8mH. Xmax is 6mm vs 2.5mm for the Volt and we have about 4x the power handling.


He does however not mention about sound quality, naturalness, and specially tone........

Quote:
expensive but truely world class. I would wire the 8 Ohm Volts in parallel, this will bring their real world sensitivity up to around 94 dB.
that would make them 4ohm drivers. would that not be any problem for SET amps to drive them ?

Quote:
If money were no object an open baffle ( VPL not U or H frame) line array of 6 ( 98 ish dB ) or even 8 (100 ish dB) of Volt 2500.4 on an acrylic baffle 400mm wide plus VPL wings, suspended by a stainless steel pole and wire frame would be on my wish list...!!
Back in the real world...
German Backes & Mueller makes a nice line array with the TPL, but closed box:

Click the image to open in full size.


the 2 10" woofers are placed behind the box. I have my interrogations, if that is a good woofer placement.....

Quote:
If you build the two way MTM, the only upgrade you would require would be to a matching world class crossover.
A battery powered DEQX with the digi out option, so you can use world class DACS and an A to D if you require any analog inputs, is the best I have used or heard.
I would love to try out Digmoda plate amps, with ICE power modules, room correction, and active crossover....

Quote:
I hope this helps and good luck, you are a great DIY role model, and I have great respect for you, always seeking perfection and willing to learn from experience...the hard way but the best way!!
My ego has been massaged. Thanks for that
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